Trevor, I will let you know if I hear more, but right now the technician (whom I trust at this point) showed me that sea water has been migrating from the muffler back into the raw water injection point near the turbo exhaust mixer. He told me that could only be caused by excessive exhaust back pressure and not the siphon break. He did look at it, but did not take anything apart. We are not certain as to how far back into the engine that water has gotten, since we would have to disassemble the engine to investigate further.

Jamie

s/v Phantom Amel 54

On Friday, December 11, 2015 3:50 AM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Jamie,

          I am fairly sure that Amel swap out the older narrow type Volvo brass syphon and replace it with a Vetus 3/4" plastic one, because, on the original one, over time it is possible for salt crystals to adhere inside the narrow brass pipe blocking the airlock and rather than being a syphon break, it actually starts to suck sea water towards the turbo which will seize the turbo and wreck the inside of the engine if it goes on long enough. I have written the cheque for that one.

I keep wondering about your engine, because I have sailed with  four different Amel 54 s over a few thousand miles and also I have spent a few months on the Amel dock at La Rochelle, I have never seen or heard of a 54 or SM give any trouble via the exhaust or muffler, I am fascinated to learn how  sea water got inside your engine.

With the amount of work that you have in front of you, it is worth having a quick look at the syphon break in the scheme of things.

Best regards,

Trevor

Seafever

SM 425

Mexico

 

Trevor, I will let you know if I hear more, but right now the technician (whom I trust at this point) showed me that sea water has been migrating from the muffler back into the raw water injection point near the turbo exhaust mixer. He told me that could only be caused by excessive exhaust back pressure and not the siphon break. He did look at it, but did not take anything apart. We are not certain as to how far back into the engine that water has gotten, since we would have to disassemble the engine to investigate further.

Jamie

s/v Phantom Amel 54

On Friday, December 11, 2015 3:50 AM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Jamie,

          I am fairly sure that Amel swap out the older narrow type Volvo brass syphon and replace it with a Vetus 3/4" plastic one, because, on the original one, over time it is possible for salt crystals to adhere inside the narrow brass pipe blocking the airlock and rather than being a syphon break, it actually starts to suck sea water towards the turbo which will seize the turbo and wreck the inside of the engine if it goes on long enough. I have written the cheque for that one.

I keep wondering about your engine, because I have sailed with  four different Amel 54 s over a few thousand miles and also I have spent a few months on the Amel dock at La Rochelle, I have never seen or heard of a 54 or SM give any trouble via the exhaust or muffler, I am fascinated to learn how  sea water got inside your engine.

With the amount of work that you have in front of you, it is worth having a quick look at the syphon break in the scheme of things.

Best regards,

Trevor

Seafever

SM 425

Mexico

 

Bill, I understand your interest and I sure appreciate all the interest and help. Let me see if I can answer the questions.

Yes, water could definitely back into the engine with excessive cranking. In that case the engine cannot expel the water in the muffler and exhaust hose. That would take quite a bit of cranking in a no-start situation. The engine was not cranked excessively. It would not start again at all after shutdown, and it should have started virtually immediately. After I determined it would not start, I was quite careful to drain the muffler and shutoff the s eacock, as I knew there would be a lot of cranking after that.

Yes, I am referencing the point where raw water is injected into the exhaust, just upstream from the muffler. We disconnected the exhaust hose between the injection point and the muffler and found salt crystals and corrosion in the inner wall. In a normal situation, that should be dry all the time.

• You've had several experts look at your engine and none have repaired it and none have been able to get it to fire at all. You are correct on this
• You currently have a mechanic that thinks that your engine is not firing because of low compression which was caused by raw water damage from excessive exhaust back-pressure. This mechanic hasn't a single piece of hard evidence to support his theory...just salt crystals in the area seen when removing the exhaust elbow. You are correct on this, although he did perform every electrical system test in the EVC service manual, ruling out any electrical problem. The rail is pressurizing, the injectors are firing (you can feel them fire), and there is a small amount of smoke coming out of the disconnected exhaust to the muffler. There is some suction at the turbo air intake, but no one in my area is able to do a compression check, since they all claim they d o not have the test equipment or time to do it. So, it is not electrical, sensors, fuel delivery, ECM, exhaust, or any else external to the engine. It can only be an internal issue in the combustion chambers, such as stuck or bent valves, etc.

Regarding the salt water infiltration, that is the only explanation my mechanic could derive from the testing he performed. All the mechanical and electrical systems proved operational. Short of engine tear down, no one has been able to provide a "smoking gun" solution to the no-start problem, and no one else has been able to absolutely identify the problem.

That is where I am . Short of engine tear down (at least cylinder head removal for now), I have no recourse but a new engine (brand to be determined).

Thanks,

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom Amel 54

On Friday, December 11, 2015 10:28 AM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Jamie,

Isn't the same thing also caused by excessive cold cranking (non-firing cranking) which fills the muffler with salt water...then it backs into the engine? 

I have a hard time with the assumption that back pressure caused this issue because you said, it ran fine until you cut it off and it would not restart. Also, if salt water entered the combustion chambers, but never caused the engine to seize, my experience tells me that it is very likely that there is no damage. You have not found salt water in the oil, so it did not pass by the rings. 

You wrote, "...sea water has been migrating from the muffler back into raw water injection point near the turbo exhaust mixer." Are you referring to the exhaust mixing elbow where exhaust and raw water are mixed? I assume that you believe that raw water backed into the combustion chamber from the m ixing exhaust elbow. Am I correct on this part?

I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to participate in the discussion...and I am trying to learn more about this Volvo engine.

To summarize where I think that you are: 

• You've had several experts look at your engine and none have repaired it and none have been able to get it to fire at all. 
• You currently have a mechanic that thinks that your engine is not firing because of low compression which was caused by raw water damage from excessive exhaust back-pressure. This mechanic hasn't a single piece of hard evidence to support his theory...just salt crystals in the area seen when removing the exhaust elbow.
  

Am I correct on where you are?

Bill

BeBe 387

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 2:51 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Trevor, I will let you know if I hear more, but right now the technician (whom I trust at this point) showed me that sea water has been migrating from the muffler back into the raw water injection point near the turbo exhaust mixer. He told me that could only be caused by excessive exhaust back pressure and not the siphon break. He did look at it, but did not take anything apart. We are not certain as to how far back into the engine that water has gotten, since we would have to disassemble the engine to investigate further.

Jamie

s/v Phantom Amel 54

On Friday, December 11, 2015 3:50 AM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Jamie,

          I am fairly sure that Amel swap out the older narrow type Volvo brass syphon and replace it with a Vetus 3/4" plastic one, because, on the original one, over time it is possible for salt crystals to adhere inside the narrow brass pipe blocking the airlock and rather than being a syphon break, it actually starts to suck sea water towards the turbo which will seize the turbo and wreck the inside of the engine if it goes on long enough. I have written the cheque for that one.

I keep wondering about your engine, because I have sailed with  four different Amel 54 s over a few thousand miles and also I have spent a few months on the Amel dock at La Rochelle, I have never seen or heard of a 54 or SM give any trouble via the exhaust or muffler, I am fascinated to learn how  sea water got inside your engine.

With the amount of work that you have in front of you, it is worth having a quick look at the syphon break in the scheme of things.

Best regards,

Trevor

Seafever

SM 425

Mexico

 

Bill, I understand your interest and I sure appreciate all the interest and help. Let me see if I can answer the questions.

Yes, water could definitely back into the engine with excessive cranking. In that case the engine cannot expel the water in the muffler and exhaust hose. That would take quite a bit of cranking in a no-start situation. The engine was not cranked excessively. It would not start again at all after shutdown, and it should have started virtually immediately. After I determined it would not start, I was quite careful to drain the muffler and shutoff the s eacock, as I knew there would be a lot of cranking after that.

Yes, I am referencing the point where raw water is injected into the exhaust, just upstream from the muffler. We disconnected the exhaust hose between the injection point and the muffler and found salt crystals and corrosion in the inner wall. In a normal situation, that should be dry all the time.

• You've had several experts look at your engine and none have repaired it and none have been able to get it to fire at all. You are correct on this
• You currently have a mechanic that thinks that your engine is not firing because of low compression which was caused by raw water damage from excessive exhaust back-pressure. This mechanic hasn't a single piece of hard evidence to support his theory...just salt crystals in the area seen when removing the exhaust elbow. You are correct on this, although he did perform every electrical system test in the EVC service manual, ruling out any electrical problem. The rail is pressurizing, the injectors are firing (you can feel them fire), and there is a small amount of smoke coming out of the disconnected exhaust to the muffler. There is some suction at the turbo air intake, but no one in my area is able to do a compression check, since they all claim they d o not have the test equipment or time to do it. So, it is not electrical, sensors, fuel delivery, ECM, exhaust, or any else external to the engine. It can only be an internal issue in the combustion chambers, such as stuck or bent valves, etc.

Regarding the salt water infiltration, that is the only explanation my mechanic could derive from the testing he performed. All the mechanical and electrical systems proved operational. Short of engine tear down, no one has been able to provide a "smoking gun" solution to the no-start problem, and no one else has been able to absolutely identify the problem.

That is where I am . Short of engine tear down (at least cylinder head removal for now), I have no recourse but a new engine (brand to be determined).

Thanks,

Jamie Wendell

s/v Phantom Amel 54

On Friday, December 11, 2015 10:28 AM, "'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Jamie,

Isn't the same thing also caused by excessive cold cranking (non-firing cranking) which fills the muffler with salt water...then it backs into the engine? 

I have a hard time with the assumption that back pressure caused this issue because you said, it ran fine until you cut it off and it would not restart. Also, if salt water entered the combustion chambers, but never caused the engine to seize, my experience tells me that it is very likely that there is no damage. You have not found salt water in the oil, so it did not pass by the rings. 

You wrote, "...sea water has been migrating from the muffler back into raw water injection point near the turbo exhaust mixer." Are you referring to the exhaust mixing elbow where exhaust and raw water are mixed? I assume that you believe that raw water backed into the combustion chamber from the m ixing exhaust elbow. Am I correct on this part?

I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to participate in the discussion...and I am trying to learn more about this Volvo engine.

To summarize where I think that you are: 

• You've had several experts look at your engine and none have repaired it and none have been able to get it to fire at all. 
• You currently have a mechanic that thinks that your engine is not firing because of low compression which was caused by raw water damage from excessive exhaust back-pressure. This mechanic hasn't a single piece of hard evidence to support his theory...just salt crystals in the area seen when removing the exhaust elbow.
  

Am I correct on where you are?

Bill

BeBe 387

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 2:51 PM, James Wendell ms42phantom54@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Trevor, I will let you know if I hear more, but right now the technician (whom I trust at this point) showed me that sea water has been migrating from the muffler back into the raw water injection point near the turbo exhaust mixer. He told me that could only be caused by excessive exhaust back pressure and not the siphon break. He did look at it, but did not take anything apart. We are not certain as to how far back into the engine that water has gotten, since we would have to disassemble the engine to investigate further.

Jamie

s/v Phantom Amel 54

On Friday, December 11, 2015 3:50 AM, "seafeverofcuan@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Jamie,

          I am fairly sure that Amel swap out the older narrow type Volvo brass syphon and replace it with a Vetus 3/4" plastic one, because, on the original one, over time it is possible for salt crystals to adhere inside the narrow brass pipe blocking the airlock and rather than being a syphon break, it actually starts to suck sea water towards the turbo which will seize the turbo and wreck the inside of the engine if it goes on long enough. I have written the cheque for that one.

I keep wondering about your engine, because I have sailed with  four different Amel 54 s over a few thousand miles and also I have spent a few months on the Amel dock at La Rochelle, I have never seen or heard of a 54 or SM give any trouble via the exhaust or muffler, I am fascinated to learn how  sea water got inside your engine.

With the amount of work that you have in front of you, it is worth having a quick look at the syphon break in the scheme of things.

Best regards,

Trevor

Seafever

SM 425

Mexico

 

Thanks, Just knew that a diesel will run if the Key is turned off and that I could hot wire start at the engine bypassing the key.

Ric

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 10:24 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 

 

The motor will not turn over if the so called "secret switch" is off

Michael Last

 

svcallisto.blogspot.com

 

-----Original Message-----
From: 'Bill & Judy Rouse' yahoogroups@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...>
To: amelyachtowners <amelyachtowners@...>
Sent: Sat, Dec 12, 2015 7:19 am
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 

Of course he checked the secret switch! Jamie, please tell me that you know about the secret switch? Although Jamie's is a 54...and I do not know if the new Amel management carried that forward.

 

Bill

BeBe

 

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Ric Gottschalk ric@... [amelyachtowners] <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

Jamie,

May I suggest, as others have, to let the mechanic do the inspection, testing, disassembly, and rebuild as needed. Annapolis has some of the best and numerous mechanics in the world, plus about 200 waterman who could rebuild a engine in a weekend. If you give them a basket of parts, they won’t touch it.  In my kitchen business, if a customer wants to help, we add 25% and cancel the warranty.  Six months has gone by and you haven’t gone sailing on what I heard is a pristine Amel. Winter is a perfect time to have someone to pull the engine, fix it, and get you sailing in the Spring. See you on the bay.  Would this “secret switch” be a possibility? I don’t have one.

Ric

Bali Hai SN24

Annapolis

 

From: amelyachtowners@... [mailto:amelyachtowners@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 7:51 AM
To: amelyachtowners@...
Subject: Re: [Amel Yacht Owners] Re: Engine Problems Amel 54

 

 

Alright, you all have convinced me to take off the head and check it out. We shall see.

Thanks,

Jamie

s/v Phantom Amel 54

 

 

On Saturday, December 12, 2015 4:46 AM, "divanz620@... [amelyachtowners]" <amelyachtowners@...> wrote:

 

 

I would absolutely agree....pulling the head is not a big job...and it lets you see the guts of the engine...maybe it is buggered...but it may not be...all you need is a good socket set and some spanners and screw drivers, and hours work...

A LOT less than a new engine !!

Almost any diesel engine can be repaired...they are the most robust means of propulsion known to man.

Give it a go !!

Cheers

Alan

Elyse SM437