More of a combination. Shaped like a Genoa made out of material like a spinnaker.

Changing the ballooner out to a dacron sail would not be a good idea.  When you are running before the wind, it is of course always true that the apparent wind will be lighter than the true wind, and having a heavier sailcloth will decrease performance in those wind speeds where the increased sail area is the most important.  At 10 knots of true wind, we sail at about 4 knots with genoa and ballooner, that leaves us with an apparent wind of only 6 knots. This is why the ballooner is nylon spinnaker cloth. If the wind is blowing at 20 knots, you really don't need that much sail area to be making good speeds.

I should also point out that in the SM2K manual, Amel suggests beginning to furl the genoa/ballooner combination at a true wind speed of 15 knots.  At 15 knots true wind, with genoa and ballooner we are doing 6.5 knots through the water, which gives us an apparent wind of about 9.5 knots.  This seems really light to start reefing, we typically start at 12 knots apparent, and have the ballooner put away by the time we start pushing 14 apparent.  By the time we get to 14 knots apparent, the true wind is well over 20 and our boat speed is such we really don't feel the need to risk sails or rig to go faster.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com

On 6 Oct 2022, at 09:58, EricOpdeweegh <sv.abayomi@...> wrote:

Thanks Bill Kinney, that makes a grounded, sensible and safe explanation to follow. 

I think it would also be a pain to get such a heavy 2nd Genoa down when it starts blowing over 18-20 knots 😊😉without even thinking about the likely unwanted extra  forces on the rig and equipment .

So you made up my mind on this one 😉

Fair winds and Safe sailing 

Eric

sv Abayomi

SM 158

Op 6 okt. 2022 om 04:36 heeft Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> het volgende geschreven:

Changing the ballooner out to a dacron sail would not be a good idea.  When you are running before the wind, it is of course always true that the apparent wind will be lighter than the true wind, and having a heavier sailcloth will decrease performance in those wind speeds where the increased sail area is the most important.  At 10 knots of true wind, we sail at about 4 knots with genoa and ballooner, that leaves us with an apparent wind of only 6 knots. This is why the ballooner is nylon spinnaker cloth. If the wind is blowing at 20 knots, you really don't need that much sail area to be making good speeds.

I should also point out that in the SM2K manual, Amel suggests beginning to furl the genoa/ballooner combination at a true wind speed of 15 knots.  At 15 knots true wind, with genoa and ballooner we are doing 6.5 knots through the water, which gives us an apparent wind of about 9.5 knots.  This seems really light to start reefing, we typically start at 12 knots apparent, and have the ballooner put away by the time we start pushing 14 apparent.  By the time we get to 14 knots apparent, the true wind is well over 20 and our boat speed is such we really don't feel the need to risk sails or rig to go faster.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com

I have run with the ballooner and genny wing and wing with winds pumping to 30kn true. I furled them in 50% in the gusts and rolled them out in the lulls. Boat speed 10kn, AWS 15-25. I did not feel that I was stressing anything.

On 07/10/2022 07:32 Daniel Alexander Thompson <thompson.xander@...> wrote:

Hey Nick

Bill wrote that he doen't know anybody who had experimented with maximum loads. 

Do you think perhaps 10 knots running (not surfing) is past hull speed and you are experimenting with maximum loads?

I wonder if it makes sense to tighten the "loose" mizzen backstay under these loading conditions.

Blessings

Daniel

Oronia Mango #14

On 6 Oct 2022, at 22:40, Daniel Alexander Thompson <Thompson.Xander@...> wrote:



[Edited Message Follows]

Hey Nick

Edit: I SEE THIS AN AMEL 54. Please disregard the following. Apologies everybody. Esp Nick. 

Bill wrote that he doen't know anybody who had experimented with maximum loads. 

Do you think perhaps 10 knots running (not surfing) is past hull speed and you are experimenting with maximum loads?

I wonder if it makes sense to tighten the "loose" mizzen backstay under these loading conditions.

Blessings

Daniel

Oronia Mango #14

On 07/10/2022 08:34 Daniel Alexander Thompson <thompson.xander@...> wrote:

Thanks for that, Danny. Did you attach lines to the ends of the jib sheets and let the jib sheets out to the pole ends, so that the sails were blown completely out over the bow?

Its unusual. Normally there is consensus on this forum. Here we have Bill Kinney about "an order of magnitude" more conservative than Nick and Bill Rouse seeming to also be on the conservative side but slightly unsure wrt loading. If I'm not mistaken. 

Op 6 okt. 2022 om 23:08 heeft Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> het volgende geschreven:



Hi Daniel. No I did not allow the sails to be blow completely over the bow. Running like that for 24 hours would have seen them flog to pieces and the flogging would have imparted damaging shock loads to the rig.

I raised the poles a bit, let them swing forward a bit and secured them up, down, fore and aft there, then I eased the sheets slightly so the upper part of the leach (outer edge) of the sails were spilling wind forward. The sails were always full, no flogging at all. I do not recommend this method for normal situations. It was an emergency tactic and I share it here in that context and that context only. Amel's recommendation of start rolling in the sails at 20Knots true is the gold standard. Because of the jam we didn't have that option. The wind at nightfall is seldom what you get all night and we have to have the boat prepared.

We had started our voyaging in June 2009 and this event was April 2010 so we were still in the discovery phase. The jam was caused by spare halyards being clipped on the the bow pulpit but we didn't know that then, do now and clip them aft of the main mast

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 07/10/2022 08:34 Daniel Alexander Thompson <thompson.xander@...> wrote:

Thanks for that, Danny. Did you attach lines to the ends of the jib sheets and let the jib sheets out to the pole ends, so that the sails were blown completely out over the bow?

Its unusual. Normally there is consensus on this forum. Here we have Bill Kinney about "an order of magnitude" more conservative than Nick and Bill Rouse seeming to also be on the conservative side but slightly unsure wrt loading. If I'm not mistaken. 

On 07/10/2022 10:59 EricOpdeweegh <sv.abayomi@...> wrote:

Thanks Danny for willing to share your experience . Not favorable but good to know . Things happen when you least expect it. It makes us all aware what can happen and  take these situations  into account to play it the safest way possible.

Fair winds 

Eric

sv Abayomi

SM 158

Op 6 okt. 2022 om 23:08 heeft Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> het volgende geschreven:

Hi Daniel. No I did not allow the sails to be blow completely over the bow. Running like that for 24 hours would have seen them flog to pieces and the flogging would have imparted damaging shock loads to the rig.

I raised the poles a bit, let them swing forward a bit and secured them up, down, fore and aft there, then I eased the sheets slightly so the upper part of the leach (outer edge) of the sails were spilling wind forward. The sails were always full, no flogging at all. I do not recommend this method for normal situations. It was an emergency tactic and I share it here in that context and that context only. Amel's recommendation of start rolling in the sails at 20Knots true is the gold standard. Because of the jam we didn't have that option. The wind at nightfall is seldom what you get all night and we have to have the boat prepared.

We had started our voyaging in June 2009 and this event was April 2010 so we were still in the discovery phase. The jam was caused by spare halyards being clipped on the the bow pulpit but we didn't know that then, do now and clip them aft of the main mast

Danny

SM 299

Ocean Pearl

On 07/10/2022 08:34 Daniel Alexander Thompson <thompson.xander@...> wrote:

Thanks for that, Danny. Did you attach lines to the ends of the jib sheets and let the jib sheets out to the pole ends, so that the sails were blown completely out over the bow?

Its unusual. Normally there is consensus on this forum. Here we have Bill Kinney about "an order of magnitude" more conservative than Nick and Bill Rouse seeming to also be on the conservative side but slightly unsure wrt loading. If I'm not mistaken.