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locked Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -


Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

I am currently stuck in Thailand, and as many of you know Zivile and I have a YouTube channel about our circumnavigation.  Sailing Aquarius.  Over a Year ago I did a video about batteries, and the video made the case for buying LiFePO4 batteries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcWBiDnB794
I think this has a lot of good information about the LiFePO4 batteries, and the systems on a SM.

I bought the Victron AGM batteries (8x110AH 12V) 3 1/2 years ago, and they were starting to get tired.  When new I had 440AH at 24V, thus about 220AH of usable.  After 3.5 years of sailing, and using the bow thruster, and picking up the anchor all without the Genset running, my batteries were giving me about 110AH of usable power.  Every morning I was getting closer and closer to 24.6V, and hit it a few times.  

Being in Thailand, I could not expect BattleBorn to be competitive with no one in Thailand, so I started doing research.  

I am currently doing a video about the batteries I ended up with, and should release it next week.  But, I found that in Thailand I was able to get a custom made LiFePO4 battery 24V 300AH for about $1800.  I bought 2, and made them sized so that 3 will fit in the SM.  That means you could get 3 batteries for slightly more than I paid for Victron AGMs and you would have 900AH at 24V.  This was a game changer - I can run the AC with my 600AH battery pack for 3 hours a night without running the Genset.

I will release the video next week.  But this was a game changer!

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2K 262


Philippe Belloir
 

hello 
thank you sharing your expériences, ans for yourvideos too...
i see lifepo4 battery 12v 100a straight from China 350 to 500 euros. 

https://m.fr.aliexpress.com/item/33035357191.html?spm=a2g0n.productlist.0.0.7d5229a0oXm49j

any opinion, experience....

best,


Philippe Belloir  
+33 781 709 791


-------- Message d'origine --------
De : Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...>
Date : 05/09/2020 05:27 (GMT+01:00)
À : main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Objet : [AmelYachtOwners] Batteries starting to get weak - MMM - What to do -

I am currently stuck in Thailand, and as many of you know Zivile and I have a YouTube channel about our circumnavigation.  Sailing Aquarius.  Over a Year ago I did a video about batteries, and the video made the case for buying LiFePO4 batteries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcWBiDnB794
I think this has a lot of good information about the LiFePO4 batteries, and the systems on a SM.

I bought the Victron AGM batteries (8x110AH 12V) 3 1/2 years ago, and they were starting to get tired.  When new I had 440AH at 24V, thus about 220AH of usable.  After 3.5 years of sailing, and using the bow thruster, and picking up the anchor all without the Genset running, my batteries were giving me about 110AH of usable power.  Every morning I was getting closer and closer to 24.6V, and hit it a few times.  

Being in Thailand, I could not expect BattleBorn to be competitive with no one in Thailand, so I started doing research.  

I am currently doing a video about the batteries I ended up with, and should release it next week.  But, I found that in Thailand I was able to get a custom made LiFePO4 battery 24V 300AH for about $1800.  I bought 2, and made them sized so that 3 will fit in the SM.  That means you could get 3 batteries for slightly more than I paid for Victron AGMs and you would have 900AH at 24V.  This was a game changer - I can run the AC with my 600AH battery pack for 3 hours a night without running the Genset.

I will release the video next week.  But this was a game changer!

Ken Powers
Aquarius SM2K 262


Denis Foster
 

Hello Ken,

Great vidéo informative and entertaining.

I understood you went for 12V Lifepo. On the chat it was advised to go for 24V Lifepo that would better balance the cells by the integrated BMS.

But then you can’t use it for emergency start of the engine (or the generator) without a 24V to 12V transformer which has added cost and something more to not work when needed the most.

is this correct ?

Thank s

Denis 
Meltem 32


Scott SV Tengah
 

Great that you took the plunge. Those Agm batteries aren't cheap so if you can keep your lithium alive, I'm certain it will save you money over the long term. 

I'm a little confused on your air con runtime on battery. Not sure about the sm, but on our 54 we have a Climma 9 in the aft cabin, which draws 782watts/26.3v=29.7amps and the calpeda pump draws 14 amps. FYI the voltage is what my victron has calculated as the average voltage under draw during the last two years. The climma draw is per spec, but only when the compressor is running. So even assuming the extreme/unrealistic case of 100% duty cycle, that's 44 amps an hour or around 132 amp hours over 3 hours. With your 600amps at 24v, you should be able to run much longer than 3 hours. Perhaps your battery monitor is not calibrated correctly? Or perhaps you're talking about running all 3 air con units? 

I'm always excited by a cheaper way to do the same thing. The victron / master volt setup is far more expensive but I guess two years ago when I installed it, I was so inexperienced with this lithium stuff and given the catastrophic battery failure and boat damage that can occur if you don't have the proper safety measures in place, I was too chicken to try it on my own. 

Excited to see how you managed those risks for far less cost than we (Garulfo, Joerg, myself) did. Too late for me but perhaps it can help others. 



Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

Hi Scott,

Actually, I only run the AC for 3 to 4 hours because I don't want to cycle the batteries too low, and I also want to save battery for the next day.  If the batteries are full,  I could run the AC all night long.  But, it is still a game changer just to get the cabin cooled down, so I can get to sleep.  40Amps x 10 hours, should not be a problem.

My batteries cost $1800 each, so I spent $3600 on the batteries (plus $500 shipping totaling $4100).  But, for 600AH at 24V, that is an amazing price.  It is almost as cheep as building the batteries yourself out of single cells, and buying a good BMS.  O, and this is cheaper than getting good AGM's.   I would consider using single cells next time where I get to choose the BMS.

I have done a lot of research on LiFePO4 batteries, and catastrophic failure of a LiFePO4 battery is probably rarer than that of lead acid.  You can short them, shoot them, or overcharge them and though they will be destroyed, they are not going to burn.  Today, the weak link in the LiFePO4 batteries is the BMS.  Almost all cells used by any reputable battery manufacturers are, 1) made in China, and 2) pretty dam good.  They should all last about 5000 cycles if used and maintained properly.  

Cheers,

Ken



Sheriffdep
 
Edited

This is my first posting to the forum. I am planning out my future with a buddy for circumnavigation and living on the boat. I am going to get either a SM2k or a Beneteau 57. Batteries are a huge plan for me. I have done tons of research on what to use and what my plans are. Most likely our usage will be as much as Delos (200+ amphr daily). During the Zoom meeting there were places for questions that were not answered. 

Denis - Yes Bill and Battle Born did recommend the 24v  over the 12v. BUT..... the BMS used in Battle born, whether the 12v or 24v batteries, will balance the cells just fine and going with the 24v ones won't make a difference. The Battle Born rep even said that but if you weren't paying attention closely you would miss it. The BB BMS are robust and the batteries are built better than all the rest being made these days. Worth the extra expense. However, IF BB would make a 24v with more than 100 amp hr capacity, in the same size Group 31, and price it lower than 2x the 12v price, I would be highly interested in that setup. Due to the 50amp hr current size it still would take 8x of them. I would rather do the 12v ones which allow for that emergency usage. 

As a thought - I also am considering if purchasing the SM2k doing a separate 12v bank purely for electronic usage and anything 12v. The Beneteau 57 has a 280amp hr bank for that and separated the 24v bank. Haven't done the calculations for that completely but would dedicate 1x solar panel for keeping that topped off (engine alternator when running also) and be able to charge cameras, flashlights, and run the depth and wind MFd's all day everyday without draining any of the main battery bank. Might be a bit over the top, but it would help. Options for extending the banks could be to put 2x extra 24v bank batteries in the aft clothes locker beside the bank or put them beside the nav station on the floor. Putting that extra pair should be fine as long as all the wires running to the unswitched distribution block from all the pairs are of equal length. That way they will all charge and discharge the same. 

Solar panels - I also noticed MOST people, lets say having 3x panels, have one MPPT to charge the bank. That one MPPT is the same cost as what 3x MPPT's would be for each panel due to inputed power levels. So if you had 3x MPPTs you would have complete redundancy if one went bad. Same cost. 


Starter -  yes if you use 24v ones you would have to have a step down to 12v for that power. 

Phillippe - Please watch on YouTube    DIY with Will Prowse  and he shows PLENTY of low prices LiFEPo4 12v Group 31 batteries that are taken apart and investigated. He always finds issues with them such as not producing the stated amp hrs they should, cheaply made BMS circuits, incorrect sized wires inside the batteries, and poor sodering of terminals inside. Some could melt due to high flows of amps pulled during usage due to incorrect wires and some mislabeled relays. Make your decision off your research and what you can learn from those informational videos. 

I watch Ken's videos and enjoy them. I will be for sure watching his new setup and seeing how it works out. Same for Delos - most don't know and I don't think Brian mentioned it during the Zoom video but they had a 8x 12v 100amp hr setup.  Not sure why but about 2 yrs into it (July 2020) they changed those out for new BB batteries and I wonder why. If aiming for higher amp hrs I get it. But I am highly interested in when his video in a month or so comes out to find out why they changed them. 

I have done some minor estimations ---   if you use 200 amp hrs daily, and also have 900w of solar, you will cycle (each cycle is one full discharge of a battery bank capacity) once per 3 days or so. That is a bit over 115 cycles per year living on the boat. If the LiFPo4 batteries get 4k+ cycles (85% capacity at that time) that would be 40 yrs of usage. If that is the case then spending 2-300 more per battery to get the BB ones, which are the best, seems highly worth spending that extra money rather than trying to find a steal. This is the lifeblood of the vessel and something you will use every day so why risk it. This is of course IMHO. 

PS - If we all could run the AC unit or units off the bank I am sure we would. However take a look at the Gone with the Wynns website and on there they have a video explain a "soft start" modual that attaches to the ac unit and will drastically lower the amp hrs used and keep the kick start amp hrs way down. It manipulates the start up sequence to prevent the spike. This possibly if utilized would allow more usage of the AC's in a hot climate. I will be installing at least 1 if not for all three units. 

Hope this helps as I am learning myself


Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

He Ken
So i think shout prevere 24 V batteries with a BMS on each batterie ?? Is it right ?

Thanks
Elja
SM Balu 222

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Sheriffdep
 

Elja,

Each LifePo4 battery has some type of BMS. Most are internal. IT manages the charge and draw down for each of the cells inside it. Prevents overcharging, prevents draining the battery, and makes sure the cells are evenly charging and discharging among other things. ALL BMS's are not equal. There are quality issues with many on the market. 


Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

Ken
i ask Victron for his batteries a BMS for all batteries
There is my concern if this fails and it is not noticed all batteries damaged if each battery has a BMS is only one damaged.

Elja

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Sheriffdep
 

Elja,   I am pretty sure ALL lifePo4 batteries have a built in BMS inside the casing. So each battery has one. You would NOT want one for a whole bank from what I understand. If that were to malfunction then you could lose the whole system rather than just one battery. The BMS is what regulates the charging and making sure all cells charge up evenly. 


Paul Osterberg
 

I ordered 16x270 Ah prismatic cells from China for a DIY system, guess i get them 5-6 weeks from now, That will give me 540 Ah 24 volt, probably go for a rec BMS (compatible with Victron system), will make video and post on the forum when ready. Will take ample time for installations as it is a few cables that I will replace and tidy up when I'm at it. For the one who use drop in, make sure they not only rated to run your bowthruster but also capable in real life, in some drop in the internat cables and BMS are not for high loads. can recommend Will Prowse on youtube very illustrative and easy to follow, he have teared a few drop in batteris apart and had a look what was inside, some of them you do not want to have onboard.
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259, lags, Portugal sykerpa.com


Arno Luijten
 

Hi Sheriffdep,

It depends what you call a LiFePO battery. But I can tell you without a doubt that the (prismatic) cells you can buy at AliExpress and other sites have no BMS build in.
Having a BMS overseeing the full battery bank is useful for cell balancing. Mastervolt is/was using Chinese Wilson cells in their batteries with a proprietary BMS on top of it enabling it to communicate with other Mastervolt stuff across the Masterbus interface. Very nice but very expensive.

This is my biggest problem with Battle Born batteries. You cannot have sensible interfacing with other systems.
Lithium batteries like to be kept between 20 and 75% state of charge if you have extended charging facilities (i.e. shore power) . The voltage alone makes it very hard to determine the state of charge when a system is at use. Basically you need a Coulomb counter to see the SOC at any point in time. Ideally your BMS should provide you with this information and adjust the float voltage of any charging device in such way it can maintain a desired SOC after bulk charging. Given the different sources of charge you can have on a boat this is not so simple.

Personally  I'm still looking for a BMS that can handle this task without me having to reconfigure everything every time I go out sailing. But I'm on shore power most of the time.

Kind Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Sheriffdep
 

Arno,

Can you explain further the BMS BB communication issues? 

Am I wrong in saying Most drop in sets have the BMS? I know you can make the cells yourself and then add outside BMS but thought the self contained ones all came with them. 

My thoughts  -  Making a custom system and filling the battery box on the SM2k and having a ton of amp hrs avaialable seems easily doable. However, not done the math, but I think financially it wouldn't be that drastic of a savings to where I would want to lets say risk the investment. Everyone has their own risk tolerance. Like a lot of the china made current batts they range from $550-800 where the BB are $850-950. Seems the BB are the most robust and best made so since this is a 15-30yr investment that little amount is peanuts overall.  

Either custom setup or OEM drop ins with the available space I do want to maximize the amp hrs usable. I will be a heavy user for sure and don't want to run the gen. Any ideas or places to research?? 

Thanks, I hope this helps others along with me


Scott SV Tengah
 

Some of my thoughts, original in regular font and my response in italics

Sheriffdep

As a thought - I also am considering if purchasing the SM2k doing a separate 12v bank purely for electronic usage and anything 12v. The Beneteau 57 has a 280amp hr bank for that and separated the 24v bank. Haven't done the calculations for that completely but would dedicate 1x solar panel for keeping that topped off (engine alternator when running also) and be able to charge cameras, flashlights, and run the depth and wind MFd's all day everyday without draining any of the main battery bank. Might be a bit over the top, but it would help. Options for extending the banks could be to put 2x extra 24v bank batteries in the aft clothes locker beside the bank or put them beside the nav station on the floor. Putting that extra pair should be fine as long as all the wires running to the unswitched distribution block from all the pairs are of equal length. That way they will all charge and discharge the same.  

I wouldn't bother with a separate 12v bank. It adds complication without additional benefit. You are at anchor 80-90% of the time anyways, so your bank is really about running house appliances. I don't know anyone who has said that the 24-12v converter can't handle their 12v needs. Further, if the SM2k is anything like the A54, you won't need to add extra space for batteries. I have 450AH @24v and use part of the battery bank area to store unused blankets. Keep in mind we went from 12 gel batteries to six Victron Smart Lithium 150AH@12v. I could have easily added more.

Solar panels - I also noticed MOST people, lets say having 3x panels, have one MPPT to charge the bank. That one MPPT is the same cost as what 3x MPPT's would be for each panel due to inputed power levels. So if you had 3x MPPTs you would have complete redundancy if one went bad. Same cost. 

Please explain what you mean by 3x would cost the same as one due to inputed power? Are you saying that you gain so much cumulative AH due to more shade tolerance that it's worth it to pay for 3 MPPTs? 

 If we all could run the AC unit or units off the bank I am sure we would. However take a look at the Gone with the Wynns website and on there they have a video explain a "soft start" modual that attaches to the ac unit and will drastically lower the amp hrs used and keep the kick start amp hrs way down. It manipulates the start up sequence to prevent the spike. This possibly if utilized would allow more usage of the AC's in a hot climate. I will be installing at least 1 if not for all three units. 

I thought a soft start only impacted the current drawn at compressor startup? How does it impact current draw once the AC is running? We can easily start and run our AC units on our 5kw Victron inverter and unless Climma includes a soft start module, we don't have one.

Either custom setup or OEM drop ins with the available space I do want to maximize the amp hrs usable. I will be a heavy user for sure and don't want to run the gen. 

A very large bank will not eliminate your genset usage. If you don't match it with sufficient renewables (solar, wind), then a huge bank simply prolongs the interval between when you have to run the genset. The energy has to come from somewhere. We use about 225AH per day more or less. Our 960w array has been providing that and more, so we usually don't run the genset except to keep it functioning or while on passage. Note we rarely run AC, but we run the dishwasher at least daily, water maker every few days, scuba compressor now and then, washing machine twice a week, ice maker, Tv, etc. For our uses, 450ah is just perfect as it allows me to keep the batteries in a SOC range where they're happy. 


Elja

i ask Victron for his batteries a BMS for all batteries
There is my concern if this fails and it is not noticed all batteries damaged if each battery has a BMS is only one damaged.

You are right that it's a good idea to think about how you are going to fix things when they fail far from a dealer. I went through this thought exericise with our Victron setup. There is only one BMS, but if the BMS fails or there is a problem with the BMS circuit, charging and load are disconnected. I guess you can call that "fail safe" but the net effect is that all the batteries are protected. IMO, it's important to think about how you go forward if you're in the Tuamotus and that happens. If you have a backup, great. But for us, the batteries, should they not be damaged, will still work. If one of the 6 batteries are damaged, I take it and its pair out of the bank and move on. In the absence of a functioning BMS, my emergency plan is to bypass the BMS and monitor things manually (via bluetooth) until I can get a new BMS sent to me. 

For anyone considering any lithium system, you really should understand how the BMS works for your particular setup. If, for example, with a high cell voltage condition, it simply cuts off the batteries from the charging circuit suddenly, some chargers and I believe most alternators would be damaged. My system isn't perfect - for low cell voltage, for example, I don't like Victron's "cut off all loads" solution. What if I'm in the middle of a storm? I certainly don't want to lose autopilot and navigation.

I would not trust your supplier or your manufacturer to think through the unique situations we put ourselves in as far-off-the-grid cruisers. I have worked with both Victron high level techs and also a very well regarded dealer and they both gave me bad advice. 


Paul
For the one who use drop in, make sure they not only rated to run your bowthruster but also capable in real life, in some drop in the internat cables and BMS are not for high loads. can recommend Will Prowse on youtube very illustrative and easy to follow, he have teared a few drop in batteris apart and had a look what was inside, some of them you do not want to have onboard.


Agree with you there. I can tell you that the Victron Smart 150ah, run in serial pairs to get 24v and parallel to get to 450ah will easily run our Sleipner bow thruster with both the engine and chargers OFF. I spent a lot of time diagnosing a problem with our BT and did it all on battery. The draw is around 8000w I believe and we never saw less than 24.4v Our batteries supposedly can handle 2C continuous, so that means I should be able to draw 900amps continuously. Make sure your batteries can handle the rated draw, before you're away from the dock.

Victron sources Chinese cells but quality checks them and assembles them in a way that I trust. When they say the battery will deliver 2C, I believe it. I am sure if you are a capable engineer, you can do what Victron did for much less money, but I don't have that skill nor time, so I sadly just paid up!

I would caution against trusting that a drop in solution will work over the long term. Lithium is so different than lead acid in terms of charging profile, power delivery profile, how you keep them happy, the systems in place to keep them from failing, etc. Keep in mind that with one under voltage or over voltage event, you can kill a cell and therefore a battery, completely. While I am not overly concerned that Lifepo4 will explode like you cell phone battery and sink your boat, a battery system failure at the wrong time could have nearly the same effect if it's in the wrong place.

Arno

This is my biggest problem with Battle Born batteries. You cannot have sensible interfacing with other systems.
Lithium batteries like to be kept between 20 and 75% state of charge if you have extended charging facilities (i.e. shore power) . The voltage alone makes it very hard to determine the state of charge when a system is at use. Basically you need a Coulomb counter to see the SOC at any point in time. Ideally your BMS should provide you with this information and adjust the float voltage of any charging device in such way it can maintain a desired SOC after bulk charging. Given the different sources of charge you can have on a boat this is not so simple.

I believe Mastervolt makes staying within a SOC range quite easy, but MV is even more $$$ than Victron. On our system, the coulomb counter you speak of is our BMV-712 battery monitor. You do need to calibrate it monthly by charging to 100%, but otherwise it has a programmable relay that you can use to send a signal when battery SOC hits x and send another signal when SOC hits Y. You could easily use that relay output to tell your chargers to stop charging when SOC is at Y and to start charging again when SOC drops to X. All of the charging sources on my boat (solar, alternator, Quattro, Skylla) can be controlled by this. 

One last thing I would caution for anyone trying to figure out their own battery protection systems or even those using Victron is that you need to ensure that when the BMS sends a "stop charging" signal, the alternator actually stops charging and does so in a safe manner. It took me over a year to figure out how to get the Victron BMS to talk to our Mastervolt alternator charge controller in case the BMS senses a cell over-voltage condition. 

This is not something that is unlikely. In the last two years, I can recall at least 10 times when, approaching high SOC, we had an imbalance and one of the cells (out of 24 in our system) hit 3.8v and the BMS told the alternator to stop charging and the alternator stopped in a safe way to avoid damaging it. Aside: The BMS will balance the cells, but can't do it instantaneously and cannot do it with too high of charging current. If your alternator simply looked at the battery voltage or the bank voltage or the SOC, it wouldn't have seen the CELL overvoltage condition that battery would have been destroyed. The BMS must talk to the alternator.

Oh and make sure that the alternator has a temperature sensor and can taper output when it overheats because the max output duration placed on it by lithium is likely far longer than it ever saw with lead/agm/gel.

As a cautionary tale, I know of a former Amel owner who installed 1200AH (!!!!) of Victron lithium and they died within 2 years. He was quite wealthy, so I presume he paid someone a hefty sum and figured it would be done right. As with anything in a cruising boat, when something fails, the installer often shrugs his shoulders and the skipper deals with the consequences in the most inconvenient place and time. Even more so with a "newer" technology like lithium.

 


-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

He Scott , first many thanks for your detaild awnser . 

i have been advised at Victron and Mastervolt for 800 Ah 12Volt  in row 400 AH 24 V
Mastervolt estimates the cost incl assembly to approx € 40000.00
with 2 combi inverters
3000/100 .
von Victron habe ich ein Angebot für alle Componenten
incl 1 st combi inverter
5000/135
Victron has only one external BMS for all batteries but offers
to connect before the BMB as an additional protection before overload the battery protection
components for land current/generator solar load and load through the light machine to double protection.

sowiso would have a reserve BMS with the 102 € are not important .

I find an Altinator Mastervolt Alpha
With the regulator Alpha III


Is it possible for this altinator to stop charging the butteries when the engine i running ? Withaut damage the altinator ? 

Thanks Elja 
Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Arno Luijten
 

Hi Sheriffdep,

Drop in replacement have build in BMS-es that is correct. The quality of those can be from excellent to abysmal and you have very little clues to determine this from the outside.
I do think that assembling your own battery pack is currently the best way forward if you have technical skills. It's cheaper and you determine for yourself which BMS system gives you the best facilities for your usage case.
It also enables you to make better use of available space. An example of company that facilitates this route is https://shop.gwl.eu/index.php?force_sid=nc4jtsqa8h85c6d1m7j3t8ncnj& (I have no relation with them and never bought anything there)

Your assumption about 15-30 year investment is highly optimistic at best. Personally I would assume a lifespan of 8 years simply as a result of lack of evidence that these things last longer. Your best bet is looking at the way Tesla's from 2013 are behaving and those use different chemistries (Li-Ion instead of LiFePO)
As said before, my main beef with this stuff is that to get the best life expectancy from these things you need to treat them carefully, meaning not fully empty or fully charged for extended periods and keeping them balanced. Most systems can only balance them at 100% SOC. This means you will need to think of the SOC of your batteries in relation to your cruising plans and modify the configuration accordingly. The latter is can be quite the hassle as you need to "tell" all your charging sources to keep a certain maximum float-voltage (more accurately maximum SOC). Alternatively you can also make them stop charging, but that means you will be short-cycling the batteries needlessly because of the never ending consumption by systems on the boat. The effects of this are unknown to me and I cannot find clear information about it. It also means your battery bank is not "set and forget" as many supplies claim is some form or shape.

My point is that it is not so hard to put a well working system together but designing one that minimizes stress on the battery system and maximizes longevity is quite the challenge. It is also depending on your use-case provided you can predict that for the coming 8-15 years (I can't). The Battle Born batteries give you very little to control the SOC and don't provide you with information on what's going on inside the black box. Their 10-year warranty doesn't mean much to me. Who knows if the company is still around in 10 years and what they will tell you then.

So in the end, I think there are some good reasons to switch to Lithium but life-span discussions in relation to total cost of ownership and comparing them to alternatives are risky at best. My thought is that the charge/discharge curve of lithium and the lack of need to charge them to 100% every time are the VERY big plus arguments. All other points are secondary and maybe even debatable.


Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Jose Venegas
 

I was searching over internet for marine Lithium Batteries and found the “Ionic” brand that sells a 12V 125 Ah with the same size of the BattleBorn 12 100 Ah battery.
Ionic only give 5 years warranty vs BB 10 years, but they will provide 25% more capacity for our boats and each battery can be monitored independently with a smart phone via blue tooth communication.
I am inclined to go BB but wonder if any one has heard good or bad things of the “ionic”

Jose Venegas
IPANEMA SM2K 278
Curaçao


Scott SV Tengah
 

Sounds about right with Mastervolt. I haven't studied their system in detail but from what I've seen, they're the most hands off, from the user perspective, that I've seen. But you pay for it!

I have the Mastervolt alternator and Alpha pro II (3 is even better) and it took me over a year and the help of an engineer who used to break into car ECUs to reprogram them. It turned out to be quite simple, but neither Victron nor dealers understood the problem or could provide the solution.

I describe how I do it here:
https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/message/50689

One final alternator tip: I did not use the standard lithium profile on the mastervolt charge controller. This is because I did not want to keep the lithium batteries fully charged when motoring for a long time as this is not good for the batteries. I set the absorption voltage for 27.5v and the "float" at 26.5v. As mentioned before, voltage is NOT a good indicator of SOC, but I've seen over the last two years that this seems to result in charging stopping at around 85% on my system.  You'll need a Mastervolt USB interface to program your charge controller.

https://www.mastervolt.com/products/masterbus-interfaces/masterbus-usb-interface/


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Scott SV Tengah
 

Arno,

I actually think if you're on shore power most of the time, lithium is a bad idea. At best, it's a waste of money that adds additional complication. 

I do agree with your lack of confidence in the warranty. Unless you are using batteries and chargers from one brand, I am almost certain the battery manufacturer will point fingers at the charger and you will left paying for a new battery bank yourself. 

For me, the big pluses are the charge/discharge curve as you mentioned, the lack of need to keep it full, the ability to run virtually all 220v appliances on battery and one thing that people don't often think about is that it could effectively double your solar output. The charge acceptance rate and near nonexistent charging efficiency issues means that, for the same solar array, you will get almost twice as many AH per day into your batteries compared to lead. I believe it is Porter who is in the tropics and has a similar solar array and the same MPPT as we do, but we are able to put nearly twice as much cumulative power into the batteries as he is. Our only difference is AGM vs. lithium.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Elja Röllinghoff Balu SM 222
 

He jose 
For the capcity you take Vicron the deal 12 v 200 ah for the normal sice 
Ore loog by green accu 
The you get 24 V 200 ah 
Best Elja 

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