BT SEAL INSTRUCTIONS


Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

Here are the instructions as I understand them.  There still may need to be some changes for the final draft. 

Steve Davis and Jose should give their thoughts before I would say the instruction set is complete.

Option 1). This is how Jose installed the New Silicone Lip-Seals.  And Jose wrote that there should be not problem with the Wiper becoming detached.
Option 2). This is how I understand that Steve Davis installed the Seals for the second time.  He tried Option 1 and had problems.  He has sailed 4000 miles without any hint of water intrusion.

I would lean toward Option 2 because there is more surface area of the upper Lip Seal in contact with the wall of the Lip Seal Cavity.  For this reason I believe Option 2 to be a superior installation.

BUT, If my experiment with a machined Teflon Bow Thruster Seal Cap is successful, Option 1 with the cap would be the ultimate solution!

Steve and Jose should chime in.  This thread should only be used for preparation of the BT Seal Instruction Set.

Thanks,

Ken Powers
Aquarius
In Thailand aboard SM2K#262


Jose Venegas
 

Ken,

I am not sure that we have been on the same page. I appreciate that you are trying to describe the process with fool prof detail, but I don’t appreciate the way you have approached me regarding your questions. I will be happy if you contact me privately and clarify the issues that I have already described twice in this string and twice more in the previous string. As I said, I mounted “the Jose” seals (two of them in series); The wiper and the lip seal, and I stated that I thought the order on which they were mounted may not affect much the result.

Again, your interpretation of how I installed the seals is wrong.
I mounted them in the order that can be seen from the picture I appended, First the lip seal and then the wiper on top of it. In fact it is more like in the seal replacement 2 but there you are missing the wiper seal on top of the lip seal. NOTE that the lip seal height is exactly the depth of the cavity, and thus the once the wiper is mounted it will protrude out a few millimeters but, because it is glued the upper surface of the lip seal. it remains solidly attached to it. One alternative approach that may also work is to glue both seals before mounting them.

Once mounted this way, the “lips” of both seals face down and are abut 2 millimeters apart. Also, the combined seal is pretty solid supporting side motions of the trunk.

If you mount the wiper first, it has a height that fills 1/2 the depth of the cavity and its lip extends below the surface of it. This leaves 1/2 of the depth to insert the lip seal and glue it to both the upper surface of the wiper and 1/2 the hight of the side wall of the cavity which will be more than enough.

Now if you want to know what I think, this order of mounting the seals (first the the wiper and then the lip seal) leaves the “lips" of both seals separated vertically by about one centimeter, and the combined seal provides less stiffness supporting side motions of the trunk. The could be better in terms of reducing the friction between the seals and the trunk, perhaps increasing its life span, but I am not sure whether over time the lack of lateral support will be better at preventing water intake.

One thing I know: I still have the same set I ordered originally, mounted in the order I described, and after 4 years I have had no water intake.

I do remember that someone had problems inserting back the trunk because he had not used the wood tool, and that may have damaged the lips of the seals or even partially dislodged them. I am not sure if that person was Steve, but that would explain the initial failure.

Jose
Ipanema SM 2K 278
Currently in Cartagena Colombia


Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

Jose,

I did try to contact you personally, but I don't think I have your correct email address (I received it from the manufacturer).  I was a bit upset, because I thought you were ignoring my email.   

Personally, I would like to get the instructions completed and be done with it.  

On page 3,  the Lip Seal is glued in place, and the Wiper is glued on TOP of it. As in your picture, I thought.  Is this the best way to install the two seals, or not? I don't want to have an Option 2 in the final draft of the instruction set.  The seals might not be drawn perfectly, but I hope you can tell the difference between them and their orientation.  I will draw them better after I receive the seals and can personally touch them.

What is your opinion on the weight necessary to set on top of the seals as the sealant cures, or none at all?

I also have had no water intrusion, with the original type seals.  That said, my bow rides higher in the water than it should.  I am in the process of moving the weight around to get my waterline correct.  This re-distribution of weight will put the hole for the bow thruster closer to the water line, and thus, the reason for my interest in your new seal design.  

I hope we can have a sundowner some evening and put this behind us! 

Ken 


Ken Powers SV Aquarius
 

I am finished with this topic.  Bill has some instructions that he may, or may not, share with the rest of the group.  After Bill and I exchanged a few emails, I have decided that it's not my place to get involved in Jose's and Bill's project.   I will do the best I can to prepare a set of instructions to those that purchased these seals through me.

All the best, 

Ken Powers
Aquarius
SM2K#262


 

Ken,

That is not what I said to you in the email I sent you. I said, 
"...I will always work to document something new for my clients. That is what I do for them. Additionally, I too failed to install these seals on a client's SM based on what Jose originally published.

The instructions document I emailed you yesterday was finalized only hours before you received it from me.

In documenting this install procedure, I went to Jose who was the designer of the seals, and to Steve, who was my first client to successfully install them. After some back and forth from each of these, we finalized the document I shared with you indicating that you could share it. I could have shared it with everyone in the group, but I didn't do that because you took the lead on this and I didn't want to minimize your effort or step on your effort.

Regarding [your term Bill Rouse's] "secrets," I routinely share the things in my Amel Book and on my website when I recognize a need. Obviously, I normally do not normally share all 400 pages of my Amel Book, but yesterday I gave 30 days free access to the entire book and the 3 gigs of Amel Book Supplements to all who attended the zoom meeting...

Please let me know if you have any other questions, and thanks for all you do for other Amel owners."

For all that want a copy of what I did with Jose and Steve, here is the copy I sent to Ken.


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 12:45 PM Ken Powers SV Aquarius <ken@...> wrote:
I am finished with this topic.  Bill has some instructions that he may, or may not, share with the rest of the group.  After Bill and I exchanged a few emails, I have decided that it's not my place to get involved in Jose's and Bill's project.   I will do the best I can to prepare a set of instructions to those that purchased these seals through me.

All the best, 

Ken Powers
Aquarius
SM2K#262


Jose Venegas
 

Ken,

I want to make sure it is clear that this IS NOT my project. More importantly, I have no ego about this and was happy to share my finding with the Amel community.

When I found that the silicone seals worked for me more that a year, after I had struggled with water intake for several years in spite of changing the standard seals several times and, because I was planning to start my cruising life, I decided to order a couple more for me and I posted it in our website to see if any body was interested to I order a few in that batch. After I had a few more people than expected (not as many as you had), I realized as you did that this project was going to take a lot more effort and time in my part that I had thought. However, I still ordered the first batch but I promised to myself that the next batch would be ordered by someone else.
At that time, several people asked me how to install them and I did my best to remember how I had done more than a year before. I am a retired engineer and I took a lot of the steps for granted. I was only after several owners asked my about details of how to instal them that I realized that it was not as simple as it had appeared to me. I also realized that I had missed the point of using the wood device provided by Amel which was key to prevent damaging the seals during installation. I also realized that the order in which the seals were mounted did not seem to matter much since both allow the two seals to work.

Now, in my pre-cruising times I was a scientist and thus I am not willing to make statements which are not proven by experimentation. I know the order I used more than 4 years ago would work fine but it was still possible that the alternative order would work equally well. In fact after receiving the second batch I realized that there were variations in the actual dimensions of the different seals, not something that would affect the sealing action of them, but they could affect the gluing of the two seals together because a small gap could be created between the lip seal and the wiper surfaces that needed to be glued together. Because such difference in dimensions was small, I figured that adding some weight (HOW MUCH, I don’t know, it depends of how much was needed), to close the gap between the two surfaces.

You see Ken, life is not always black and white.

The alternative order does not have that issue but, as I mentioned in a previous post it does not create as much lateral stiffness on the trunk. SO, IT MAY be that the alternative order may work better or worse. ONLY TIME WILL TELL US.

To finish, please don’t think that this is MY project. It is something that I found worked for me and I was happy to share with the Amel community, as I know you do every time you find something that works for you.
I hope we will have the chance to enjoy sundowners some where around the world.

Jose.