Topics

Climma Air Conditioning from shore power


Peter de Groot
 



Greetings,
I’m hoping someone has run into this before, and can shed some light.  I have the feeling the answer is staring me right in the face and I just can’t see it.

For 3 years of owning la Querida SM#207 I’ve always run the heaters and Air Conditioning from generator power.  The marina where I was berthed only offered a 30A 120VAC circuit.  Now that we’re in Mexico, we’ve had occasion to run the water heater and Air Conditioning from shore power.  It has not gone well.  Upon plugging into shore power the breaker on the side of the 220VAC load center in the galley immediately tripped.  Mind you this is North American 220(230) VAC with two hot legs and no neutral.  Together with an electrician we found the offending circuit and disconnected the blue (normally neutral) wire and all circuits worked except the Climma air conditioning.  Restoring that connection A to B in the diagram above, the Air conditioning works being powered from the generator.  However the main breaker trips immediately when connected to shore power.  Power feed “1” comes off the main power distribution, no circuit separate circuit breaker.  Power feed “2” comes off the “Climma” individual breaker on the Amel Panel.

Measuring voltage from “B” to a brown junction point reads 125VAC.  From “B” to a blue wire junction point (normally neutral) also reads about 125 VAC.  “B” to ground is open.

The electrician did his work three ports ago (and we were sailing the next day) when our priority was to get the hot water heater to work without bothering the neighbors with generator noise and exhaust.  Now our priority is getting the air conditioning working from shore power.  We’re much further south and the cabin is a sauna most evenings.  The previous owner was on board for a week in Zihuatenejo and reiterated he was able to run all circuits (including the air conditioning) from shore power.  He also did his cruising in Mexico with 2 hot leg 230VAC power.

Any tips or similar past experience/solutions would be welcome.

Peter de Groot
la Querida, SM#207
now in Barra de Navidad
(just back from Ixtapa where the mosquitoes forced us to close the hatches making the problem worse)


Thomas Peacock
 

Being in the US, we have also had to occasionally run on a shore pedestal that puts out 30 amps at 110 volts. The transformer in the engine room then converts that to 220 volts, which, I have always assumed, yields only about 15 amps. Once that feeds into the 220 panel, I have, again, always assumed that the panel cannot tell what the original voltage was, it just sees 220 in a European wiring configuration. Obviously, the Hertz will be 60, whereas with the generator it is 50. 
I’m not sure what wire your electrician disconnected, but I would be VERY reluctant to mess with the original Amel wiring. 
That said, you cannot run both the AC units and the water heater on US (or Mexican) 30 amp 110 volts. There just isn’t enough juice. Check the watts on all your devices. 30 amps at 110 volts should only be able to give you about 3,300 watts.
By the breaker, do you mean the 32 amp breaker on the 220 volt box?
As always, I am not an electrician. Past results do not predict future returns. I’m sure others may add more expertise.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay 

On Feb 2, 2021, at 5:44 PM, Peter de Groot <pandmdegroot@...> wrote:


<B87D5313-A35F-4F7C-9F56-612E08B1201E.jpeg>


Greetings,
I’m hoping someone has run into this before, and can shed some light.  I have the feeling the answer is staring me right in the face and I just can’t see it.

For 3 years of owning la Querida SM#207 I’ve always run the heaters and Air Conditioning from generator power.  The marina where I was berthed only offered a 30A 120VAC circuit.  Now that we’re in Mexico, we’ve had occasion to run the water heater and Air Conditioning from shore power.  It has not gone well.  Upon plugging into shore power the breaker on the side of the 220VAC load center in the galley immediately tripped.  Mind you this is North American 220(230) VAC with two hot legs and no neutral.  Together with an electrician we found the offending circuit and disconnected the blue (normally neutral) wire and all circuits worked except the Climma air conditioning.  Restoring that connection A to B in the diagram above, the Air conditioning works being powered from the generator.  However the main breaker trips immediately when connected to shore power.  Power feed “1” comes off the main power distribution, no circuit separate circuit breaker.  Power feed “2” comes off the “Climma” individual breaker on the Amel Panel.

Measuring voltage from “B” to a brown junction point reads 125VAC.  From “B” to a blue wire junction point (normally neutral) also reads about 125 VAC.  “B” to ground is open.

The electrician did his work three ports ago (and we were sailing the next day) when our priority was to get the hot water heater to work without bothering the neighbors with generator noise and exhaust.  Now our priority is getting the air conditioning working from shore power.  We’re much further south and the cabin is a sauna most evenings.  The previous owner was on board for a week in Zihuatenejo and reiterated he was able to run all circuits (including the air conditioning) from shore power.  He also did his cruising in Mexico with 2 hot leg 230VAC power.

Any tips or similar past experience/solutions would be welcome.

Peter de Groot
la Querida, SM#207
now in Barra de Navidad
(just back from Ixtapa where the mosquitoes forced us to close the hatches making the problem worse)

--
Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


Matt Salatino
 

One thing to keep in mind, US power is 120 volts, 60 hz, not 110.
Easy mistake to make.
Even our A50 with the US power option is labeled 110 volts.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 2, 2021, at 6:48 PM, Thomas Peacock <peacock8491@...> wrote:

Being in the US, we have also had to occasionally run on a shore pedestal that puts out 30 amps at 110 volts. The transformer in the engine room then converts that to 220 volts, which, I have always assumed, yields only about 15 amps. Once that feeds into the 220 panel, I have, again, always assumed that the panel cannot tell what the original voltage was, it just sees 220 in a European wiring configuration. Obviously, the Hertz will be 60, whereas with the generator it is 50. 
I’m not sure what wire your electrician disconnected, but I would be VERY reluctant to mess with the original Amel wiring. 
That said, you cannot run both the AC units and the water heater on US (or Mexican) 30 amp 110 volts. There just isn’t enough juice. Check the watts on all your devices. 30 amps at 110 volts should only be able to give you about 3,300 watts.
By the breaker, do you mean the 32 amp breaker on the 220 volt box?
As always, I am not an electrician. Past results do not predict future returns. I’m sure others may add more expertise.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay 

On Feb 2, 2021, at 5:44 PM, Peter de Groot <pandmdegroot@...> wrote:


<B87D5313-A35F-4F7C-9F56-612E08B1201E.jpeg>


Greetings,
I’m hoping someone has run into this before, and can shed some light.  I have the feeling the answer is staring me right in the face and I just can’t see it.

For 3 years of owning la Querida SM#207 I’ve always run the heaters and Air Conditioning from generator power.  The marina where I was berthed only offered a 30A 120VAC circuit.  Now that we’re in Mexico, we’ve had occasion to run the water heater and Air Conditioning from shore power.  It has not gone well.  Upon plugging into shore power the breaker on the side of the 220VAC load center in the galley immediately tripped.  Mind you this is North American 220(230) VAC with two hot legs and no neutral.  Together with an electrician we found the offending circuit and disconnected the blue (normally neutral) wire and all circuits worked except the Climma air conditioning.  Restoring that connection A to B in the diagram above, the Air conditioning works being powered from the generator.  However the main breaker trips immediately when connected to shore power.  Power feed “1” comes off the main power distribution, no circuit separate circuit breaker.  Power feed “2” comes off the “Climma” individual breaker on the Amel Panel.

Measuring voltage from “B” to a brown junction point reads 125VAC.  From “B” to a blue wire junction point (normally neutral) also reads about 125 VAC.  “B” to ground is open.

The electrician did his work three ports ago (and we were sailing the next day) when our priority was to get the hot water heater to work without bothering the neighbors with generator noise and exhaust.  Now our priority is getting the air conditioning working from shore power.  We’re much further south and the cabin is a sauna most evenings.  The previous owner was on board for a week in Zihuatenejo and reiterated he was able to run all circuits (including the air conditioning) from shore power.  He also did his cruising in Mexico with 2 hot leg 230VAC power.

Any tips or similar past experience/solutions would be welcome.

Peter de Groot
la Querida, SM#207
now in Barra de Navidad
(just back from Ixtapa where the mosquitoes forced us to close the hatches making the problem worse)

--
Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


 

Peter,

You definitely have a ground fault in some device on your boat. A ground fault will trip a pedestal breaker in a marina much faster than a ground fault will trip the main breaker on your 220-volt panel because the sensitivity for ground faults in a marina is very high, especially in the US where marinas do not want to be sued for injury.

I suggest you get an electrician to isolate which device is causing a ground fault.
The most common is the water heater which develops pinholes in the heating element, and the second most common is the Climma AC/Heat units. There are many different causes of ground faults in the Climma units with the most expensive being a ground fault inside the compressor.

Write me at brouse@... or call at the number below. I am in the US Central time zone. WhatsAp or Signal work for me. 
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 4:44 PM Peter de Groot <pandmdegroot@...> wrote:


Greetings,
I’m hoping someone has run into this before, and can shed some light.  I have the feeling the answer is staring me right in the face and I just can’t see it.

For 3 years of owning la Querida SM#207 I’ve always run the heaters and Air Conditioning from generator power.  The marina where I was berthed only offered a 30A 120VAC circuit.  Now that we’re in Mexico, we’ve had occasion to run the water heater and Air Conditioning from shore power.  It has not gone well.  Upon plugging into shore power the breaker on the side of the 220VAC load center in the galley immediately tripped.  Mind you this is North American 220(230) VAC with two hot legs and no neutral.  Together with an electrician we found the offending circuit and disconnected the blue (normally neutral) wire and all circuits worked except the Climma air conditioning.  Restoring that connection A to B in the diagram above, the Air conditioning works being powered from the generator.  However the main breaker trips immediately when connected to shore power.  Power feed “1” comes off the main power distribution, no circuit separate circuit breaker.  Power feed “2” comes off the “Climma” individual breaker on the Amel Panel.

Measuring voltage from “B” to a brown junction point reads 125VAC.  From “B” to a blue wire junction point (normally neutral) also reads about 125 VAC.  “B” to ground is open.

The electrician did his work three ports ago (and we were sailing the next day) when our priority was to get the hot water heater to work without bothering the neighbors with generator noise and exhaust.  Now our priority is getting the air conditioning working from shore power.  We’re much further south and the cabin is a sauna most evenings.  The previous owner was on board for a week in Zihuatenejo and reiterated he was able to run all circuits (including the air conditioning) from shore power.  He also did his cruising in Mexico with 2 hot leg 230VAC power.

Any tips or similar past experience/solutions would be welcome.

Peter de Groot
la Querida, SM#207
now in Barra de Navidad
(just back from Ixtapa where the mosquitoes forced us to close the hatches making the problem worse)


Peter de Groot
 

Thank you Bill, Matt and Tom,
Just to clarify, when I refer to plugging into shore power, for this discussion I mean 230VAC 50A shore power in NorthAmerica.  (Yes 60 Hz).  The previous owners converted the Amel cable to feed 2 hot legs and a ground (no neutral).  Again, the previous owners claim (and I believe)were able to run the AC from this power source.

The wire removed was the A to B connection on the diagram

Peter
SM 207


Brent Cameron
 
Edited

Actually Matt is right, the US (and Canadian) standard is 120Volts AC +/- 5% (which is 114 to 126 Volts) at 60 Hertz.

Way back in the early days, Edison (who won the power battle with AC power over Tesla’s DC), had set the standard at 110 VAC to ensure that houses at the end of lines could at least get 100 VAC and many appliances were labeled that way but the standard was changed to 115V in about the 1930’s and then in 1984, the NEC mandated 120V +/- 5%.    It has been creeping up to make power transmission more efficient with the existing gauges of wire used.  

Normal residential power is delivered  as single phase from each leg of the transformer at 120 VAC to neutral with the other leg to neutral being 180 degrees out of phase (so the two hot wires together will give 240 VAC - still at 60 Hertz).   Industrial systems (and some marinas) use 3 phase power because it is more efficient and that system has three hot legs, each of which is at 120 VAC to neutral but 208 VAC to another leg as the power is out of phase by only 120˚.  Think of the power as coming in on a Sine wave oscillating at 60 Hertz.  When you combine those three phases together you get 360 degrees (or 120 degrees on each of three legs).     The net of it is that your boat can see anything from 208 to 240 VAC if you join two hot legs together or 120 VAC if you just use one hot leg to neutral.  All 60 Hertz and +/-5%.  

Most devices labelled 110VAC will have no difficulty at all at 120VAC.  NEMA rated motors will go +/- 10% of their nameplate voltages.   Old incandescent bulbs might burn a bit hotter (as might the element on your stove or hair dryer) but the motors will take to it just fine as will your electronics.

Brent Cameron, Future Amel owner & Amel Owner's Registry Moderator

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Matt Salatino
 

If you REALLY want confusing, Japan’s power is 100 v. 
50 Hz in the east, and 60 Hz in the west. They use the same outlets as the US. 
That must make appliance manufacturers, crazy!

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 2, 2021, at 11:30 PM, Brent Cameron <brentcameron61@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Typo]

Actually Matt is right, the US (and Canadian) standard is 120Volts AC +/- 5% (which is 114 to 126 Volts) at 60 Hertz.

Way back in the early days, Edison (who won the power battle with AC power over Tesla’s DC), had set the standard at 110 VAC to ensure that houses at the end of lines could at least get 100 VAC and many appliances were labeled that way but the standard was changed to 115V in about the 1930’s and then in 1984, the NEC mandated 120V +/- 5%.    It has been creeping up to make power transmission more efficient with the existing gauges of wire used.  

Normal residential power is delivered  as single phase from each leg of the transformer at 120 VAC to neutral with the other leg to neutral being 180 degrees out of phase (so the two hot wires together will give 240 VAC - still at 60 Hertz).   Industrial systems (and some marinas) use 3 phase power because it is more efficient and that system has three hot legs, each of which is at 120 VAC to neutral but 208 VAC to another leg as the power is out of phase by only 120˚.  Think of the power as coming in on a Sine wave oscillating at 60 Hertz.  When you combine those three phases together you get 360 degrees (or 120 degrees on each of three legs).     The net of it is that your boat can see anything from 208 to 240 VAC if you join two hot legs together or 120 VAC if you just use one hot leg to neutral.  All 60 Hertz and +/-5%.  

Most devices labelled 110VAC will have no difficulty at all at 120VAC.  NEMA rated motors will go +/- 10% of their nameplate voltages.   Old incandescent bulbs might burn a bit hotter (as might the element on your stove or hair dryer) but the motors will take to it just fine as will your electronics.

Brent Cameron, Future Amel owner & Amel Owner's Registry Moderator

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Alan Leslie
 

AND in French Polynesia 220V 60 Hz !!!!

Cheers

Alan
Elyse SM437


Thomas Peacock
 

Hi Brent,
Your physics will outshine mine any day of the week, but I must interject that it was Tesla who was the AC advocate (indeed, he invented the AC motor). Edison fought the losing battle for DC. 

Tom Peacock
SM Aletes #240
Chesapeake Bay

On Feb 2, 2021, at 11:33 PM, Brent Cameron <brentcameron61@...> wrote:



[Edited Message Follows]
[Reason: Typo]

Actually Matt is right, the US (and Canadian) standard is 120Volts AC +/- 5% (which is 114 to 126 Volts) at 60 Hertz.

Way back in the early days, Edison (who won the power battle with AC power over Tesla’s DC), had set the standard at 110 VAC to ensure that houses at the end of lines could at least get 100 VAC and many appliances were labeled that way but the standard was changed to 115V in about the 1930’s and then in 1984, the NEC mandated 120V +/- 5%.    It has been creeping up to make power transmission more efficient with the existing gauges of wire used.  

Normal residential power is delivered  as single phase from each leg of the transformer at 120 VAC to neutral with the other leg to neutral being 180 degrees out of phase (so the two hot wires together will give 240 VAC - still at 60 Hertz).   Industrial systems (and some marinas) use 3 phase power because it is more efficient and that system has three hot legs, each of which is at 120 VAC to neutral but 208 VAC to another leg as the power is out of phase by only 120˚.  Think of the power as coming in on a Sine wave oscillating at 60 Hertz.  When you combine those three phases together you get 360 degrees (or 120 degrees on each of three legs).     The net of it is that your boat can see anything from 208 to 240 VAC if you join two hot legs together or 120 VAC if you just use one hot leg to neutral.  All 60 Hertz and +/-5%.  

Most devices labelled 110VAC will have no difficulty at all at 120VAC.  NEMA rated motors will go +/- 10% of their nameplate voltages.   Old incandescent bulbs might burn a bit hotter (as might the element on your stove or hair dryer) but the motors will take to it just fine as will your electronics.

Brent Cameron, Future Amel owner & Amel Owner's Registry Moderator

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


--
Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


 

Peter,

I am going to answer your question as though nothing has been changed or modified since your Amel was new. This is the only way anyone without specific knowledge of your Amel can accurately give you an answer.

The reason that removing the connection between A and B worked for you is because I believe that you removed the Climma Calpeda saltwater pump from the Earth circuit. But to be sure that it was the pump removed, I would need to know if the pump was also connected to the Amel bonding system. If it is, then possibly something else is connected to the Amel bonding system that is causing this issue through the bonding connection to the pump. This is a little confusing, but if your Amel is original, the bonding system and Earth are bridged at the original AC saltwater pump...the Bonding wire is connected to the brass one-way valve (see below) which is connected to the metal pump case (see below). Inside the capacitor and wiring junction box on the pump, Earth is connected to the case. In effect at the AC Saltwater Pump, Bonding is connected to the case and Earth is connected to the case, resulting in Bonding connected to Earth. 

Maybe you should take a close look at any change in connections to the bonding system, or any newly added 230v devices. Of course, it could be other issues with original devices deteriorating and causing a ground fault.

Maybe with this information, an electrician can help you.

Bill

Below is Amel Bonding wire connected to the brass one-way valve
image.png

Below is inside the wiring junction box on the Calpeda Saltwater pump where the Ground wire is connected to the metal case of the pump, bridging Earth and Bonding:
image.png
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 7:57 PM Peter de Groot <pandmdegroot@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, Matt and Tom,
Just to clarify, when I refer to plugging into shore power, for this discussion I mean 230VAC 50A shore power in NorthAmerica.  (Yes 60 Hz).  The previous owners converted the Amel cable to feed 2 hot legs and a ground (no neutral).  Again, the previous owners claim (and I believe)were able to run the AC from this power source.

The wire removed was the A to B connection on the diagram

Peter
SM 207


Peter de Groot
 

Hi Tom,
Yes, the circuit breaker that is tripping is the Amel unit on the outside of the 220VAC box housing the panel.

We do not have a transformer for the 110VAC circuit. To get the 220VAC power from the shore pedestal, the previous owners adapted a North American 50A connector on the end of the Amel cable. So we feed 2 hot legs with no neutral.


Peter,
La Querida, #207


Brent Cameron
 

Of course you are right Tom.  I knew that but sometimes I get things exactly backwards when my fingers type faster than my brain! :-)  Great catch!

Brent

--
Brent Cameron

Future Amel Owner & Amel Owner Registry Moderator

Oro-Medonte, Ontario, Canada


Ryan Meador
 

Hi Peter,

I concur with Bill -- you almost certainly have a ground fault.  The 32A breaker on the outside of the panel box is also a ground fault interrupter.  If it is tripping instantly, that indicates either a ground fault or massive overcurrent (a mild overcurrent would take time to trip).

For what it's worth, we've been running our air conditioning on USA shore power almost the whole time we've had the boat, as did the previous owner.  It's connected through a USA 50A plug as you described.

Ryan and Kelly
SM 233 Iteration
Salem, MA, USA


On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:09 AM Peter de Groot <pandmdegroot@...> wrote:
Hi Tom,
Yes, the circuit breaker that is tripping is the Amel unit on the outside of the 220VAC box housing the panel.

We do not have a transformer for the 110VAC circuit.  To get the 220VAC power from the shore pedestal, the previous owners adapted a North American 50A connector on the end of the Amel cable.  So we feed 2 hot legs with no neutral.


Peter,
La Querida, #207






Billy Newport
 
Edited

My Amel 55 is a 230v boat. I am using a us 240v pigtail to power my boat in the manner you describe in the usa. The heater and climma work on shore power. The 2500w inverter must be on for dish washer and washing machine or microwave. My pigtail is wired as bill describes in his book.

Billy.


Mark McGovern
 

Peter,

The circuit breaker that is tripping is an RCD or Residual Current Device.  It trips when it detects a even a minute difference between the current in the (normally) Hot leg and the current in the (normally) Neutral return.  In a properly functioning AC electrical circuit, the current would be the same in the Hot and Neutral return.  If the Hot was somehow shorted to ground at the appliance (like to the appliance case) the current would be returned to the source via the Ground wire instead of the Neutral wire. The RCD breaker would trip when it detected that the current in the HOT wire was NOT returning to the source via the Neutral wire.

Obviously, you no longer have a Neutral return but I am fairly certain that the RCD still works with two Hot legs.  So assuming your RCD is working properly, then it appears that you have more current on one Hot leg then you have on the other WHEN ON SHORE POWER ONLY.  Given that your voltage readings were the same, that would mean that the resistance of one Hot leg is higher than the other.  In my experience, the most likely cause of higher resistance in a circuit like this is usually a bad "mechanical" electrical connection.  Think bad crimp or a loose screw terminal.

Given that everything works fine when you are running on the Generator, I would be looking at every "mechanical" electrical connection in the Shore Power wiring including:
  • Wire Connections inside the Automatic Transfer Switch
  • Wire Connections at Shore Power Plug
If everything looks OK, I would probably try to bypass the Automatic Transfer Switch and see what happens.

Usual disclaimer that I am NOT a marine electrician and I do not even play one on TV!  Good luck.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA


Thomas Peacock
 

I totally defer to Mark on this. 
But, I would add that the automatic transfer switch (in the port cockpit locker) was severely corroded on my SM a couple of years ago.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay

On Feb 3, 2021, at 5:45 PM, Mark McGovern <mfmcgovern@...> wrote:



Peter,

The circuit breaker that is tripping is an RCD or Residual Current Device.  It trips when it detects a even a minute difference between the current in the (normally) Hot leg and the current in the (normally) Neutral return.  In a properly functioning AC electrical circuit, the current would be the same in the Hot and Neutral return.  If the Hot was somehow shorted to ground at the appliance (like to the appliance case) the current would be returned to the source via the Ground wire instead of the Neutral wire. The RCD breaker would trip when it detected that the current in the HOT wire was NOT returning to the source via the Neutral wire.

Obviously, you no longer have a Neutral return but I am fairly certain that the RCD still works with two Hot legs.  So assuming your RCD is working properly, then it appears that you have more current on one Hot leg then you have on the other WHEN ON SHORE POWER ONLY.  Given that your voltage readings were the same, that would mean that the resistance of one Hot leg is higher than the other.  In my experience, the most likely cause of higher resistance in a circuit like this is usually a bad "mechanical" electrical connection.  Think bad crimp or a loose screw terminal.

Given that everything works fine when you are running on the Generator, I would be looking at every "mechanical" electrical connection in the Shore Power wiring including:
  • Wire Connections inside the Automatic Transfer Switch
  • Wire Connections at Shore Power Plug
If everything looks OK, I would probably try to bypass the Automatic Transfer Switch and see what happens.

Usual disclaimer that I am NOT a marine electrician and I do not even play one on TV!  Good luck.

--
Mark McGovern
SM #440 Cara
Deale, MD USA

--
Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


Peter de Groot
 

Greetings all,
The last round of responses have been particularly helpful. Thank you all.

Update: Tuesday late afternoon I reconnected the A to B connection started the generator and ran the air conditioning with all 3 Climma units on. From the sound of the generator engine, it was clear that when the water pump came on, there was a considerable load. Much more than the heaters or battery charger. We ran the air conditioning for a while and went below to experience the cooler cabin. After about 45 minutes of run time, the generator pulled down further and stopped. I turned off the air conditioning breaker on the 220 panel and restarted the generator, to make sure the generator was OK, which it was.
Yesterday morning, I found the 5 Amp fuse in the Climma relay box was blown. I replaced it but could not get the pump to come on. I isolated the 3 Climma units and one at a time checked how they were delivering there “go” signal to the relay box. I found some inconsistencies, and the aft unit (which may have had water damage from rain leaking in through a not completely closed head hatch) both the blue and brown wire went to 226VAC when the unit was turned on. This is a separate issue which I’ll check out later.
In the process of all this checking, I went through 3 of the 4 spare 5A fuses on board.
Everything seems to be pointing to the pump motor, so before using my last good fuse I’ll isolate the pump motor and go through its internal grounding. Most likely I’ll be waiting to do this in our next port (Vallarta) There is an electrician there I trust, and the chance of getting a replacement pump motor is better. Not to mention more fuses.
Starting tomorrow we’re off the boat for a week long excursion inland, so the next post may be in a few weeks.

BTW: the recommended local electrician here had never encountered 220 VAC delivered by one hot and a neutral, so he was on the boat for less than 20 minutes (a mutual decision fortunately)

Thanks again all. I really appreciate the suggestions.

Peter
La Querida SM#207
Barra de Navidad, Mexico.


 

Peter,

I am betting your ground fault is inside your AC pump caused by a failed mechanical seal and probably the sealed bearings. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Thu, Feb 4, 2021, 8:08 AM Peter de Groot <pandmdegroot@...> wrote:
Greetings all,
The last round of responses have been particularly helpful.  Thank you all.

Update:  Tuesday late afternoon I reconnected the A to B connection started the generator and ran the air conditioning with all 3 Climma units on.  From the sound of the generator engine, it was clear that when the water pump came on, there was a considerable load.  Much more than the heaters or battery charger.  We ran the air conditioning for a while and went below to experience the cooler cabin.  After about 45 minutes of run time, the generator pulled down further and stopped.  I turned off the air conditioning breaker on the 220 panel and restarted the generator, to make sure the generator was OK, which it was.
Yesterday morning, I found the 5 Amp fuse in the Climma relay box was blown. I replaced it but could not get the pump to come on.  I isolated the 3 Climma units and one at a time checked how they were delivering there “go” signal to the relay box.  I found some inconsistencies, and the aft unit (which may have had water damage from rain leaking in through a not completely closed head hatch) both the blue and brown wire went to 226VAC when the unit was turned on.  This is a separate issue which I’ll check out later.
In the process of all this checking, I went through 3 of the 4 spare 5A fuses on board.
Everything seems to be pointing to the pump motor, so before using my last good fuse I’ll isolate the pump motor and go through its internal grounding.  Most likely I’ll be waiting to do this in our next port (Vallarta) There is an electrician there I trust, and the chance of getting a replacement pump motor is better.  Not to mention more fuses.
Starting tomorrow we’re off the boat for a week long excursion inland, so the next post may be in a few weeks.

BTW: the recommended local electrician here had never encountered 220 VAC delivered by one hot and a neutral, so he was on the boat for less than 20 minutes (a mutual decision fortunately)

Thanks again all.  I really appreciate the suggestions.

Peter
La Querida SM#207
Barra de Navidad, Mexico.






eric freedman
 

Hello Peter,

Would you be so kind as to send me this wiring diagram as a JPG.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Peter de Groot
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 5:44 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

 



Greetings,
I’m hoping someone has run into this before, and can shed some light.  I have the feeling the answer is staring me right in the face and I just can’t see it.

For 3 years of owning la Querida SM#207 I’ve always run the heaters and Air Conditioning from generator power.  The marina where I was berthed only offered a 30A 120VAC circuit.  Now that we’re in Mexico, we’ve had occasion to run the water heater and Air Conditioning from shore power.  It has not gone well.  Upon plugging into shore power the breaker on the side of the 220VAC load center in the galley immediately tripped.  Mind you this is North American 220(230) VAC with two hot legs and no neutral.  Together with an electrician we found the offending circuit and disconnected the blue (normally neutral) wire and all circuits worked except the Climma air conditioning.  Restoring that connection A to B in the diagram above, the Air conditioning works being powered from the generator.  However the main breaker trips immediately when connected to shore power.  Power feed “1” comes off the main power distribution, no circuit separate circuit breaker.  Power feed “2” comes off the “Climma” individual breaker on the Amel Panel.

Measuring voltage from “B” to a brown junction point reads 125VAC.  From “B” to a blue wire junction point (normally neutral) also reads about 125 VAC.  “B” to ground is open.

The electrician did his work three ports ago (and we were sailing the next day) when our priority was to get the hot water heater to work without bothering the neighbors with generator noise and exhaust.  Now our priority is getting the air conditioning working from shore power.  We’re much further south and the cabin is a sauna most evenings.  The previous owner was on board for a week in Zihuatenejo and reiterated he was able to run all circuits (including the air conditioning) from shore power.  He also did his cruising in Mexico with 2 hot leg 230VAC power.

Any tips or similar past experience/solutions would be welcome.

Peter de Groot
la Querida, SM#207
now in Barra de Navidad
(just back from Ixtapa where the mosquitoes forced us to close the hatches making the problem worse)


Andrew & Kate Lamb
 

Hi Peter

Is you boat 230v circuit and generator a 50hz system?

Andrew
SM472
Canet-en-roussillon


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of eric freedman <kimberlite@...>
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 8:29:26 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Climma Air Conditioning from shore power
 

Hello Peter,

Would you be so kind as to send me this wiring diagram as a JPG.

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Peter de Groot
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2021 5:44 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Climma Air Conditioning from shore power

 



Greetings,
I’m hoping someone has run into this before, and can shed some light.  I have the feeling the answer is staring me right in the face and I just can’t see it.

For 3 years of owning la Querida SM#207 I’ve always run the heaters and Air Conditioning from generator power.  The marina where I was berthed only offered a 30A 120VAC circuit.  Now that we’re in Mexico, we’ve had occasion to run the water heater and Air Conditioning from shore power.  It has not gone well.  Upon plugging into shore power the breaker on the side of the 220VAC load center in the galley immediately tripped.  Mind you this is North American 220(230) VAC with two hot legs and no neutral.  Together with an electrician we found the offending circuit and disconnected the blue (normally neutral) wire and all circuits worked except the Climma air conditioning.  Restoring that connection A to B in the diagram above, the Air conditioning works being powered from the generator.  However the main breaker trips immediately when connected to shore power.  Power feed “1” comes off the main power distribution, no circuit separate circuit breaker.  Power feed “2” comes off the “Climma” individual breaker on the Amel Panel.

Measuring voltage from “B” to a brown junction point reads 125VAC.  From “B” to a blue wire junction point (normally neutral) also reads about 125 VAC.  “B” to ground is open.

The electrician did his work three ports ago (and we were sailing the next day) when our priority was to get the hot water heater to work without bothering the neighbors with generator noise and exhaust.  Now our priority is getting the air conditioning working from shore power.  We’re much further south and the cabin is a sauna most evenings.  The previous owner was on board for a week in Zihuatenejo and reiterated he was able to run all circuits (including the air conditioning) from shore power.  He also did his cruising in Mexico with 2 hot leg 230VAC power.

Any tips or similar past experience/solutions would be welcome.

Peter de Groot
la Querida, SM#207
now in Barra de Navidad
(just back from Ixtapa where the mosquitoes forced us to close the hatches making the problem worse)