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FRESH WATER SAFETY CUTOFF Maybe Gary Silver will respond


 

Ryan & Kelly,

Great find!

I did not know that Square D offered this. This will work perfectly for any Amel with the OEM pump installed, but will not work for fans of Jabsco and others. That said, if I remember correctly, Gary Silver added an automatic cut-off switch that turned OFF the freshwater pump if it ran continuously for X minutes. Maybe Gary will respond.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:08 AM Ryan Meador <ryan.d.meador@...> wrote:
On my last boat, I had exactly the scenario you suggest happen: a hose let go while I was away from the boat, the entire water supply was pumped into the bilge, and the pump's diaphragm failed.

I recently had to replace the pressure switch on our SM's AMFA water pump, which is a standard Square D switch.  Rather than exact replacement, I used the FSG2J24M4BP, which has a low-pressure cut off.  If a hose lets go, the pressure drops to such an extent that the pump will turn off and not turn on again until you manually flip the switch.  This should prevent the worst of this type of problem, but it won't protect against slow leaks.

Thanks,

Ryan and Kelly
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:04 AM Arlo <svplanb@...> wrote:
On my last vessel  51 footer I used wall mounted timer from.McMaster carr that you could turn the dial from 15 to 120 minutes and then it would open the contacts electrically thereby turning off the water pump electric. It was placed by the galley sink. It worked flawlessly with daily use for 10 years. The reason we installed it was to ensure when we left the vessel that the water was turned off. On my Mango my SOP is simply turn off the water when I leave the boat. We have a bilge alarm when the water gets high for when we are onboard. 


Gary Silver
 

This is a good discussion.  I have had three forays into this arena:
1.  I once manually set my Dessalator fresh water flush valve to the flush position, got distracted and pumped 800 liters of "flush" water thru my membranes.  This while motoring into Providencialis in the Turks and Caicos (the lesser draft may have aided in this circumstance).  Only when I investigated why my water tank was empty, did I discover my forgetfulness induced error. In this instance my fresh water was pumped overboard while coming into port, so no major issues.

2.  Once while under sail and running the water maker, I was surprised to hear the bilge water-level alarm go off,  I raised the engine compartment cover to see water sloshing about just around the feet of the Calpeda  AC seawater pump.  A quick finger lick proved it to be salt water and investigation revealed it was coming from the seal of the low pressure Dessalator feed pump.  I assume my bilge pump had been operating for some time until it was overwhelmed.

3.  While sailing from Grenada to Carriacou one boisterous day I overheard a one sided MayDay discussion and noted we were only about 5 miles away from the lat-long of a vessel that was sinking.  We arrived first on scene about 20 minutes after the 4 folks took to their life-raft and watched their home disappear into 11,000 ft of water 2 days before Christmas.   Getting them and their life-raft aboard in 25+ knots and 8 ft seas was quite an adventure. They were sailing along, when the wife decided to go below and get something to eat only to find the floor boards floating.  All attempts to find the site of the water intrusion were futile as the water was already too deep.  Early warning may have helped them save their boat. 

This got me to remembering my first offshore sail training aboard the Orange Coast College vessel Alaska Eagle en-route from Costa Rica to San Diego via Clipperton Atoll.  When standing watch we manually pumped the bilge every hour and logged it.  Able then to deal with any increase in bilge level.  At any rate, after one or more of the above episodes, I purchased a bilge pump run-on alarm from Borel Manufacturing of California.  Wired into the bilge pump circuit, if that circuit runs for more than 2 minutes it sounds a 110 dB sonalert that will awaken the dead.  Once the pump stops momentarily it resets the solid state timer of the run-on alarm.  When aboard I test it daily by switching the bilge pump to the manual position for more than 2 minutes.  

A similar alarm could be utilized on the fresh water pressure pump.  It would only activate if the pressure pump (Amfa or otherwise) ran for more than 2 minutes.  

I checked the Borel Mfg. web site just now and don't see this alarm offered currently, however, I have a call into the owner to inquire about its status.  

I do like the idea of switching the pressure pump power off at night or when off the boat and I plan to incorporate that into my routine.

Thanks for the discussion.  I'll post as soon as I hear from Borel Mfg.

Gary S. Silver, M.D. (retired)
Amel SM 2000 Hull #  335
Puerto Del Rey Marina, Puerto Rico 


Matt Salatino
 

I think the Amel 50 has the safety cutoff switch. I go, weekly to a friend’s boat while they’re out of country and fresh water flush the watermaker. I have to turn on 24 volts. The pump will not come on, I assume now, as the pressure is low. I have to flip a lever on the pressure switch to start the pump. Once the pressure builds, it works fine after that. I thought it was a problem with the switch until this thread, when the lightbulb went off...(above my head). Amel finally figured it out....

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On May 11, 2020, at 6:54 PM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Ryan & Kelly,

Great find!

I did not know that Square D offered this. This will work perfectly for any Amel with the OEM pump installed, but will not work for fans of Jabsco and others. That said, if I remember correctly, Gary Silver added an automatic cut-off switch that turned OFF the freshwater pump if it ran continuously for X minutes. Maybe Gary will respond.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:08 AM Ryan Meador <ryan.d.meador@...> wrote:
On my last boat, I had exactly the scenario you suggest happen: a hose let go while I was away from the boat, the entire water supply was pumped into the bilge, and the pump's diaphragm failed.

I recently had to replace the pressure switch on our SM's AMFA water pump, which is a standard Square D switch.  Rather than exact replacement, I used the FSG2J24M4BP, which has a low-pressure cut off.  If a hose lets go, the pressure drops to such an extent that the pump will turn off and not turn on again until you manually flip the switch.  This should prevent the worst of this type of problem, but it won't protect against slow leaks.

Thanks,

Ryan and Kelly
SM 233 Iteration
Boston, MA, USA


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:04 AM Arlo <svplanb@...> wrote:
On my last vessel  51 footer I used wall mounted timer from.McMaster carr that you could turn the dial from 15 to 120 minutes and then it would open the contacts electrically thereby turning off the water pump electric. It was placed by the galley sink. It worked flawlessly with daily use for 10 years. The reason we installed it was to ensure when we left the vessel that the water was turned off. On my Mango my SOP is simply turn off the water when I leave the boat. We have a bilge alarm when the water gets high for when we are onboard. 


 

Gary,

If Borell happens to be out of production, tell them that I will promote this alarm in my book, my website, and here. 

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 12:28 PM Gary Silver via groups.io <garysilver=mac.com@groups.io> wrote:
This is a good discussion.  I have had three forays into this arena:
1.  I once manually set my Dessalator fresh water flush valve to the flush position, got distracted and pumped 800 liters of "flush" water thru my membranes.  This while motoring into Providencialis in the Turks and Caicos (the lesser draft may have aided in this circumstance).  Only when I investigated why my water tank was empty, did I discover my forgetfulness induced error. In this instance my fresh water was pumped overboard while coming into port, so no major issues.

2.  Once while under sail and running the water maker, I was surprised to hear the bilge water-level alarm go off,  I raised the engine compartment cover to see water sloshing about just around the feet of the Calpeda  AC seawater pump.  A quick finger lick proved it to be salt water and investigation revealed it was coming from the seal of the low pressure Dessalator feed pump.  I assume my bilge pump had been operating for some time until it was overwhelmed.

3.  While sailing from Grenada to Carriacou one boisterous day I overheard a one sided MayDay discussion and noted we were only about 5 miles away from the lat-long of a vessel that was sinking.  We arrived first on scene about 20 minutes after the 4 folks took to their life-raft and watched their home disappear into 11,000 ft of water 2 days before Christmas.   Getting them and their life-raft aboard in 25+ knots and 8 ft seas was quite an adventure. They were sailing along, when the wife decided to go below and get something to eat only to find the floor boards floating.  All attempts to find the site of the water intrusion were futile as the water was already too deep.  Early warning may have helped them save their boat. 

This got me to remembering my first offshore sail training aboard the Orange Coast College vessel Alaska Eagle en-route from Costa Rica to San Diego via Clipperton Atoll.  When standing watch we manually pumped the bilge every hour and logged it.  Able then to deal with any increase in bilge level.  At any rate, after one or more of the above episodes, I purchased a bilge pump run-on alarm from Borel Manufacturing of California.  Wired into the bilge pump circuit, if that circuit runs for more than 2 minutes it sounds a 110 dB sonalert that will awaken the dead.  Once the pump stops momentarily it resets the solid state timer of the run-on alarm.  When aboard I test it daily by switching the bilge pump to the manual position for more than 2 minutes.  

A similar alarm could be utilized on the fresh water pressure pump.  It would only activate if the pressure pump (Amfa or otherwise) ran for more than 2 minutes.  

I checked the Borel Mfg. web site just now and don't see this alarm offered currently, however, I have a call into the owner to inquire about its status.  

I do like the idea of switching the pressure pump power off at night or when off the boat and I plan to incorporate that into my routine.

Thanks for the discussion.  I'll post as soon as I hear from Borel Mfg.

Gary S. Silver, M.D. (retired)
Amel SM 2000 Hull #  335
Puerto Del Rey Marina, Puerto Rico 


John Clanton <jclanton@...>
 

The 55 has the same Square D pressure switch.  If the pressure drops below a certain level, one must manually engage, and hold, the pressure switch (by way of a small lever on the lower, right side of the Square D unit) until a minimum pressure is achieved.  This is typically only a few seconds.

 

I always turn the pressure pump breaker off when I leave, but never considered do so at night.  It makes sense.

 

 

John Clanton

S/V Devereux

Antibes, France


Robert Giroux
 

Pardon me if this is a stupid question but how does the pressure switch know the difference between a leak and an open running faucet?

 

 

Regards,

Robert Giroux

Future Amel Owner

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Clanton
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 3:06 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] FRESH WATER SAFETY CUTOFF Maybe Gary Silver will respond

 

The 55 has the same Square D pressure switch.  If the pressure drops below a certain level, one must manually engage, and hold, the pressure switch (by way of a small lever on the lower, right side of the Square D unit) until a minimum pressure is achieved.  This is typically only a few seconds.

 

I always turn the pressure pump breaker off when I leave, but never considered do so at night.  It makes sense.

 

 

John Clanton

S/V Devereux

Antibes, France


Arno Luijten
 

I've had this Square D switch with safety feature for some time now. The added safety is good but if a hose starts leaking it will do nothing to prevent pumping your fresh water tank empty unless the leak is massive and close to the pump. The main objective of the safety is to prevent the pump from running when the tank is empty.

Our pump never runs continuously when using the taps or the showers. Only for the toilets the demand exceeds the pump-supply capacity. In all other cases the pump supplies more water then requested, causing the pressure vessel to fill up. At some point the pressure exceeds the shut off pressure (even when the tap is still running) and the pumps stops for a short while until the pressure vessel has lost enough pressure to re-activate the pump. In other words in many cases the pressure drop will not be enough to activate the safety feature on the Sqare D switch.
So when, let's say the shower tape starts leaking it will happily empty out the watertank even with the Square D safety feature.

The most simple way to secure the system is obviously switching off the pump when you leave. A timer may work but with a big leak you can pump quite a lot of water out of the system in an hour so the question becomes at what duration the time should be set.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Gary Silver
 

Hi Bill & All: 

Mark at Borel returned my phone call yesterday afternoon.  I told him of my long favorable use of his product aboard my boat and the renewed interest in the pump run-on alarm.  

He has retired and no longer manufactures his products.  I told him there might be an expanded market for the product due to publication of its utility.  He indicated he would not restart production.  I further inquired if he would be willing to sell the production rights etc. and he expressed no interest in doing so.  

Darn it,  I guess we will have to look elsewhere for a 28 VDC pump run-on alarm.

Gary Silver 
s/v Liahona
Amel SM 2000 #335
Farmington, UT