Topics

Headliner fix

Chip Beaman
 

A 1982 Maramu in low humidity area, headliner sagging.  The fix, cover the inside cabin overhead along with the sagging headliner with painted plywood. 
It looks nice, but my question is-
 
If the boat goes to an area with higher humidity, would mold be a concern between the plywood, old headliner and cabin top????
 
I think it would be, but I don’t know that for fact.  If you have any experience with this please pipe in. 
 
Thank you
Chip Beaman
Future Amel Owner 

 

The reason earlier model Amels had sagging headliner was that after about 15 years the foam backing on the vinyl disintegrated. The glue was attached to the foam. 

The best way to repair this is to remove all of the old and then glue new foam-backed vinyl in place. Hint: in some cases you will be able to use the old vinyl as a pattern. This is a difficult and tedious process. Experience and patience are two important tools. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 11:24 PM Chip Beaman <chipfrog128@...> wrote:
A 1982 Maramu in low humidity area, headliner sagging.  The fix, cover the inside cabin overhead along with the sagging headliner with painted plywood. 
It looks nice, but my question is-
 
If the boat goes to an area with higher humidity, would mold be a concern between the plywood, old headliner and cabin top????
 
I think it would be, but I don’t know that for fact.  If you have any experience with this please pipe in. 
 
Thank you
Chip Beaman
Future Amel Owner 

Chip Beaman
 

Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner

Chip Beaman <chip@...>
 

Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner

 

Chip,

I normally say something like, "trust the original design." But, "trust" is what got us to this point. I think Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam manufacturers to deliver a good product to the vinyl covering manufacturer. And, I believe that Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam backing on the headliner to last a lot longer, but so did most automobile manufacturers at the same time period.

I really do not have the kind of thermal engineering background to be sure that the following comments are 100% correct, but I believe they are: 
An Amel is an unusually dry boat, however, one can change the original design and unintentionally create barriers that aid/cause moisture to form from condensation because of a difference in temperature. This is sometimes inadvertently done by modifying refrigeration or air conditioning, and I assume could be done by adding a non-breathing barrier to the ceiling where the outside temperature and inside temperature can merge to create condensation. I believe that I am correct when I say that most boat builders use materials that breathe in these situations (including the foam layer on the backside of the vinyl in an Amel).

I suggest recovering the ceiling with a foam-backed vinyl from a "trusted source."

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar
cloudHQPowered by
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On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 9:17 AM Chip Beaman <chip@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner






Chip Beaman
 

Great comments and advice. Thank you Sir.

Chip
Future Amel Owner

Matt Salatino
 

Many boat manufacturers used similar, foam-backed vinyl. All had sagging issues as a result. None should be using it today, unless they don’t care what happens 8-10 years down the road, after warranties are long gone. On our previous boat (as did many manufacturers), we fixed the problem by removing the panel, removing the vinyl, cleaning the deteriorated foam off both the panel and vinyl, and reflux got with contact cement. Hundreds of boats, if not thousands did this.....

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 22, 2020, at 10:50 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Chip,

I normally say something like, "trust the original design." But, "trust" is what got us to this point. I think Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam manufacturers to deliver a good product to the vinyl covering manufacturer. And, I believe that Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam backing on the headliner to last a lot longer, but so did most automobile manufacturers at the same time period.

I really do not have the kind of thermal engineering background to be sure that the following comments are 100% correct, but I believe they are: 
An Amel is an unusually dry boat, however, one can change the original design and unintentionally create barriers that aid/cause moisture to form from condensation because of a difference in temperature. This is sometimes inadvertently done by modifying refrigeration or air conditioning, and I assume could be done by adding a non-breathing barrier to the ceiling where the outside temperature and inside temperature can merge to create condensation. I believe that I am correct when I say that most boat builders use materials that breathe in these situations (including the foam layer on the backside of the vinyl in an Amel).

I suggest recovering the ceiling with a foam-backed vinyl from a "trusted source."

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar
cloudHQPowered by
cloudHQ


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 9:17 AM Chip Beaman <chip@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner






 

The issue wasn't that they used foam. The issue was the type of foam and the process of adhering the foam to the vinyl. This is the reason that the problem doesn't exist in later Amel SMs.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Sat, Feb 22, 2020, 10:29 AM Matt Salatino via Groups.Io <helmsmatt=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Many boat manufacturers used similar, foam-backed vinyl. All had sagging issues as a result. None should be using it today, unless they don’t care what happens 8-10 years down the road, after warranties are long gone. On our previous boat (as did many manufacturers), we fixed the problem by removing the panel, removing the vinyl, cleaning the deteriorated foam off both the panel and vinyl, and reflux got with contact cement. Hundreds of boats, if not thousands did this.....

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Feb 22, 2020, at 10:50 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:

Chip,

I normally say something like, "trust the original design." But, "trust" is what got us to this point. I think Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam manufacturers to deliver a good product to the vinyl covering manufacturer. And, I believe that Henri Amel trusted the polyfoam backing on the headliner to last a lot longer, but so did most automobile manufacturers at the same time period.

I really do not have the kind of thermal engineering background to be sure that the following comments are 100% correct, but I believe they are: 
An Amel is an unusually dry boat, however, one can change the original design and unintentionally create barriers that aid/cause moisture to form from condensation because of a difference in temperature. This is sometimes inadvertently done by modifying refrigeration or air conditioning, and I assume could be done by adding a non-breathing barrier to the ceiling where the outside temperature and inside temperature can merge to create condensation. I believe that I am correct when I say that most boat builders use materials that breathe in these situations (including the foam layer on the backside of the vinyl in an Amel).

I suggest recovering the ceiling with a foam-backed vinyl from a "trusted source."

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar
cloudHQPowered by
cloudHQ


On Sat, Feb 22, 2020 at 9:17 AM Chip Beaman <chip@...> wrote:
Thank you Bill, I have read and spoke to folks about the daunting task of headliner replacement. To do it right, replacing the headliner is the right thing to do, I guess, that’s what I am trying to find out. The current owner did a fantastic job covering it and I love the look of it. My great concern, is mold growth in areas of higher humidity. Mold mitigation strategies are a given, regardless of the current liner solution. I just don’t know if it is a bridge to far to expect normal processes to keep mold from growing between the old liner and the covering material (painted plywood)???????
Thank you Sir for all you do.

Chip
Future Amel Owner






amelforme
 

Here is some helpful information regarding the headliner with the foam backing.

FIRST AND FOREMOST. THIS STUFF IS DEADLY POISONOUS AS IT IS MADE OF POLYURETHNE. IT TURNS INTO A FINE DUST AS IT DRIES OUT AND CRUMBLES. ONE NEEDS TO WEAR AN APPROPRIATE RESPIRATOR AND USE EYE PROTECTION AND PROTECTIVE CLOTHING TO PREVENT SEVERE HEALTH COMPLICATIONS. YEARS AGO, I WAS INVOLVED IN WORKING OUT A PROCESS TO REHANG THE FALLING VINYL AS MANY OF THE  AMEL BOATS I WAS RESELLING HAD THIS CHALLENGE.  ON THE VERY FIRST JOB AFTER TAKING DOWN THE HEADLINER, I GOT VERY ILL AND MY 65 YEAR OLD  EXPERT YINYL HANGER ENDED UP IN THE HOSPITAL AND ALMOST DIED. I CANNOT OVEREMPHACIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS AND TAKE EVERY PRECAUGHTION TO NOT BREATHE OR IN ANYWAY INJEST IT OR GET IT IN YOUR EYES. I ENDED UP DOING THREE OR FOUR BOATS PERSONALLY WITH HELPERS ,AND SUPERVISED ANOTHER TWENTY OR SO BOATS OVER THE YEARS.  Working during the hot and humid Florida summer wearing a respirator and a plastic full coverage overall suit was not anywhere near as uncomfortable as getting sick from this stuff. BE CAREFUL.

As further caution, in the early days of polyurethane paint, the warnings on the cans said, " Do not use this product without a respirator and appropriate protective clothing. It will kill you."  I remember asking the paint foreman at the yard I used in San Diego ( Kettenburg's , remember them? Condominiums are there now ) what was with that warning. He said the paint distributor told him a lot of the older paint sprayer specialists got very sick and died because they did not pay attention to a milder warning about 'serious health risks’ and the paint makers were tired of being sued. I am as serious as a heart attack, the dust from the poly foam will make you wish you had been more careful. I was sick for a month.

I have written about this before on the  Amel owners group site and there are several ways to accomplish a good and attractive repair. Here is the most important background information. Every Kirk, Sharki, Maramu, Mango, Santorin and Super Maramu built prior to about February 2006 had the polyurethane foam backing on the headliner. Boats built after that had an organic spun cotton/felt backing which does not deteriorate with thermal cycling that occurs with each sun up/sun down. I have yet to see any of the boats with the felt backing have anything more than minor problems with adhesion and it won’t try to kill you when you work with it like polyurethane will.

Again, there are several ways to get a good repair, dependent on if the original vinyl hasn’t been ruined with attempts to re-hang it with glues that ‘melt’ it. If you must replace the vinyl, I would suggest cotton backed material as it does not deteriorate like most every kind of plastic foam will.

 

All The Best, Joel      

 

       JOEL F. POTTER-CRUISING YACHT SPECIALIST~L.L.C.

                                           THE  EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY

UNSURPASSED AMEL MARKETING EXPERIENCE AND PRODUCT KNOWLEDGE

                                   Office 954-462-5869  Cell 954-812-2485

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chip Beaman
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2020 11:25 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Headliner fix

 

Great comments and advice. Thank you Sir.

 

Chip

Future Amel Owner

 

 

 

 

Chip Beaman
 

Joel,
WOW I knew there were health risks associated with the removal. Did not know it was that bad. Your first hand knowledge of this is very powerful, thank you for that response and warning. I will remember that always and pass it on.

I am of the opinion that the plywood that was placed over the vynal to avoid/defer the removal is not a bad solution. I’m of equal opinion, at some point it must be addressed.
I am guessing the replacement is not a cheap date.

Thank you again for your response.

Chip
Future Amel Owner

Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Hi Chip,

Trilogy (1990 SM23) needed a fix for its failing headliner when I bought her in November 2017. First attempt was to remove all the old, toxic junk between the vinyl and fiberglass. It was a brutal task and a serious health risk as Joel makes clear. We tried 3M headliner adhesive spray hoping it would stick with the disintegrating foam layer removed. We tried this in just the bow first. It didn't last more than a month.
The solution we ended up with was 1.25" wide x 0.25" thick strips of wood screwed into the ceiling about 1 foot apart. The wood we found was from an old wooden boat (marine quality and a good color match after some new varnish). We used this solution everywhere and it's holding up very well. Only if you reach up and touch the vinyl can you tell it's not really attached. I hesitated doing this at first because I wanted an original look and didn't want to put all those screws into the boat. Looking back, I wish I skipped the torture experiment in the bow and went with the wood strips first. There are other ways to tackle this issue, but these strips saved us a lot of time and money. Stay safe!

Cheers,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy SM23
Opua, NZ

Mark Barter
 

Our 1993 Super Maramu has the same fix except that the battens are white. It looks like it was tedious process to fit but the result is perfectly acceptable. I am not near the boat at the moment so I can't post a photo.
--
Mark & Nicky Barter
S/V Nunky
SM 110

amelforme
 

It has come to my attention that I made a mistake when I represented that all the Amel  boats built after 2006 have the desired spun cotton/felt backing on the vinyl overhead instead of the polyurethane foam . Actually it is from model year 1996 forward. I regret the error and thank Duane and Peg on Wanderer for the heads up.

JOEL F. POTTER
CRUISING YACHT SPECIALIST LLC
THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY
Office 954-462-5869 

On Feb 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Mark Barter <markbarter100@...> wrote:

Our 1993 Super Maramu has the same fix except that the battens are white. It looks like it was tedious process to fit but the result is perfectly acceptable. I am not near the boat at the moment so I can't post a photo.
--
Mark & Nicky Barter
S/V Nunky
SM 110

James Alton
 

Joel,

   Would you by chance know of a source for the exact headliner material and adhesive that Amel has been using since 1996?  Thanks for the background on this issue.

James 
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Feb 27, 2020, at 11:21 AM, amelforme <jfpottercys@...> wrote:

It has come to my attention that I made a mistake when I represented that all the Amel  boats built after 2006 have the desired spun cotton/felt backing on the vinyl overhead instead of the polyurethane foam . Actually it is from model year 1996 forward. I regret the error and thank Duane and Peg on Wanderer for the heads up.

JOEL F. POTTER
CRUISING YACHT SPECIALIST LLC
THE EXPERIENCED AMEL GUY
Office 954-462-5869 

On Feb 23, 2020, at 5:40 AM, Mark Barter <markbarter100@...> wrote:

Our 1993 Super Maramu has the same fix except that the battens are white. It looks like it was tedious process to fit but the result is perfectly acceptable. I am not near the boat at the moment so I can't post a photo.
--
Mark & Nicky Barter
S/V Nunky
SM 110

smiles bernard
 

I'm also really interested to find a headliner match - if anyone knows a close one
thinking of doing my aft cabin roof at some point soon
All the best
Miles
Maramu #162

James Alton
 

Miles and All,

My primary concern with the headliner project is to be sure to use a material that does not break down and an adhesive that does not let go over time.  It seems that Amel has things figured out with the 1996 and later boats so why experiment going forward?  It’s going to be a huge project to do it right so I really only want to do it once.  

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Feb 28, 2020, at 4:33 AM, smiles bernard via Groups.Io <smilesbernard@...> wrote:

I'm also really interested to find a headliner match - if anyone knows a close one
thinking of doing my aft cabin roof at some point soon
All the best
Miles
Maramu #162

Courtney Gorman
 

Just an FYI I have a 2008 54 and there is some saging in the headliner.  the back is still sticky so with my hand it is easy to push back up but this needs doing about every month.  
Courtney
trippin
54 #101


-----Original Message-----
From: James Alton via Groups.Io <lokiyawl2@...>
To: main <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Feb 28, 2020 7:40 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Headliner fix

Miles and All,

My primary concern with the headliner project is to be sure to use a material that does not break down and an adhesive that does not let go over time.  It seems that Amel has things figured out with the 1996 and later boats so why experiment going forward?  It’s going to be a huge project to do it right so I really only want to do it once.  

James
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Feb 28, 2020, at 4:33 AM, smiles bernard via Groups.Io <smilesbernard@...> wrote:

I'm also really interested to find a headliner match - if anyone knows a close one
thinking of doing my aft cabin roof at some point soon
All the best
Miles
Maramu #162

Paul Stascavage
 

Just an FYI. 

I’m not sure what headliner was used in the 54 or earlier models of SM’s, Maramu’s, etc., but the headliner in our boat (SM #466) was still available about a year ago. It has a felt like backing. We are looking to replace the fine plush like material that lines the forward and captains berth walls and thought the headliner would be a good replacement material as well as match the rest of the boat.  Most SM’s we have seen have the pleated cushion material in these areas and it is attached with Velcro. Ours has this thin layer of material that appears to be glued in place. We haven’t completed the project yet as I am still trying to figure out if I will be able to remove these panels first. Hopefully this summer I will find some spare time to investigate further. It does appear that there are some screws behind the fabric but I am not sure if all the mounting screws are accessible. If anyone knows please let me know. 

Slightly off topic, but if anyone is interested, at the same time we purchased some of the original blue shower curtain material and had new curtains made. Again that was available as of about a year ago. 

All the Best,

Paul Stascavage
S/V Rita Kathryn SM #466

RitaKathryn.com

Currently Cruising Bahamas

Eric Meury
 

We need to replace our headlines well.   I think. Going to do white PVC bead board
It will be easy to keep clean.  Probably going to use Velcro and use small pieces and some trim pieces that match the existing wood to cover up the seams.  This way I can take it down and inspect for mold

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 5:57 PM Paul Stascavage via Groups.Io <pstas2003=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Just an FYI. 

I’m not sure what headliner was used in the 54 or earlier models of SM’s, Maramu’s, etc., but the headliner in our boat (SM #466) was still available about a year ago. It has a felt like backing. We are looking to replace the fine plush like material that lines the forward and captains berth walls and thought the headliner would be a good replacement material as well as match the rest of the boat.  Most SM’s we have seen have the pleated cushion material in these areas and it is attached with Velcro. Ours has this thin layer of material that appears to be glued in place. We haven’t completed the project yet as I am still trying to figure out if I will be able to remove these panels first. Hopefully this summer I will find some spare time to investigate further. It does appear that there are some screws behind the fabric but I am not sure if all the mounting screws are accessible. If anyone knows please let me know. 

Slightly off topic, but if anyone is interested, at the same time we purchased some of the original blue shower curtain material and had new curtains made. Again that was available as of about a year ago. 

All the Best,

Paul Stascavage
S/V Rita Kathryn SM #466

RitaKathryn.com

Currently Cruising Bahamas

Robert Linley <minaxibob@...>
 

On my older SM6 I had the drooping headliner problem. My 1st fix was the wood strips idea screwed in to hold up the sagging areas. It looked good and lasted about 10 years before I had to start chasing kittens trying to “fix” new areas. Many of the wall sections are also peeling, such as captains berth and the heads. I am now considering the real fix of a total strip and new material (with proper protection per Joel). My concern is how to handle the areas of vinyl that were glued in place at the edges behind wood trim such as the wood wall panels in the window areas etc. does anyone know if these can be removed, I see no screws or attachment methods and do not want to mess up the fine woodwork.
Bob
SM6 Minaxi