High latitude sailing in Amel.
|
Hi all, can the group direct me to video/ experiences/ blogs etc on how the Amel fairs in remote/ cold/ high lat areas.
I don't mean ice areas such as NW passage...more anywhere good glass boats can go. Experiences with Amel insulation, heating, furling gear efficiency in icing etc all appreciated. Thank you. |
|
|
|
Hi David With my Sharki I spent 16 years in Tierra del Fuego, sailing along all the channels of Patagonia and often putting the bow into the glaciers. After this experience I can say that an Amel is an excellent boat for venturing into cold, difficult and above all isolated areas. What is needed is good heating, adequate insulation, a couple of floating 100m cables and a considerable autonomy. Above all, one must enter into the philosophy that one must know how to manage oneself in total autonomy in every situation, because any aid or assistance is complicated and there is very little to be found. A lot also depends on how long you decide to stay, because if you plan to spend a summer and then go back to the tropics, it's not worth doing a lot of insulation work. On the contrary, if you plan to stay in the winter as well, you will need to insulate all the lockers and cabinets with a polyethylene sheet of at least 1 cm thick. The same goes for all glass surfaces. The main enemy is humidity and in addition to trying to produce little with suitable precautions, you must insulate the internal walls in contact with the outside, such as the Goyots and the plexiglass of the cabins. Obviously the speech is long and certainly cannot be treated completely in a few lines. Fair Winds Giorgio Ardrizzi - Saudade III Il Mer 1 Mar 2023, 12:48 David Dawes <dawesnav@...> ha scritto: Hi all, can the group direct me to video/ experiences/ blogs etc on how the Amel fairs in remote/ cold/ high lat areas. |
|
|
|
John Crosby
Wow, impressive Giorgio … and great photos! Respectfully John Crosby (INUIT, Maramu #253) On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:35, Giorgio Ardrizzi <giorgio.ardrizzi@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Wow Giorgio, that's super info and experience and photos. It is also exactly the feedback I wanted. I don't want to be slamming ice but definitely envisage remote areas where a strong hull is good insurance.
Does an Amel have any insulation to speak of as standard? What did you have for heat? I see chimney. And what is the translation of "guyots"? Hatches? How did you insulate these? Clear film? A second layer of plexiglass? Many thanks. |
|
|
|
David I have a Danish Refleks oil fired stove which consumes about 2 liters a day and does not need electricity. It is the solution most used by those who sail intensely in those waters. There are some precautions to take for the chimney because on a sailboat it is difficult to find a point without turbulence. Standard insulation is minimal as on all the fiberglass yacht, just a layer of carpet that soaks up moisture after a few weeks. You need a layer of insulating material, like camping mats. I glued it with silicone and then put the carpet back. Yes, by Goyot I mean openable hatches and I can confirm that a nylon film like the kitchen one is enough. In the case of the opening portholes I used a transparent plastic with Velcro edges so I could easily detach it and open them. It can also be done for the plexiglass of the cabins. Ciao Giorgio Il Mer 1 Mar 2023, 14:16 David Dawes <dawesnav@...> ha scritto: Wow Giorgio, that's super info and experience and photos. It is also exactly the feedback I wanted. I don't want to be slamming ice but definitely envisage remote areas where a strong hull is good insurance. |
|
|
|
Anyone considering high latitude sailing, and especially Patagonia, should read Giorgio's definitive guide "Patagonia &Tierra Del Fuego.
|
|
|
|
Hanoah Thank you for your flattering words about my nautical guide. Giorgio Il Mer 1 Mar 2023, 17:18 Hanoah <sailhanoah@...> ha scritto: Anyone considering high latitude sailing, and especially Patagonia, should read Giorgio's definitive guide "Patagonia &Tierra Del Fuego. |
|
|
|
Hi David, cheers, |
|
|
|
David, we took Kincsem around Iceland last summer and didn't have a problem. Very little condensation and no mold we could find. Water temps 6-10C and air mostly 8-12C. We used the Webasto warm water heating quite a bit but by no means all day long. The key advantage of an Amel is the "bubble" - we were often sailing from the entirely enclosed cockpit!
Cheers Joerg Joerg Esdorn A55 #53 Kincsem Currently in Craobh Haven, Scotland |
|
|
|
Ian Park
I solved the hanging locker issue (which happened even in temperate climates) of mould on clothes. I bought some slab insulation for roof lofts which conveniently just fitted in the gaps between the horizontal hull stringers. As it’s polystyrene it cut easily with a bread knife. I then put a large panel of marine teak ply (thin to bend to the contour)over it all and kept it in place with short screws into the stringers. Once varnished it looks really good and provides 5cm of really good insulation.
It’s the old problem of warm boat air temperature versus cooler sea on the hull causing condensation. Under the aft berth I have a layer of that open weave boat bed underlay (can’t remember the commercial name for it, and then some Closed foam sheeting on top. We keep all our spare bedding and clothes under there and don’t have any problems with dampness. I’ve done the same on the fore cabin lockers. Again not high latitude, but North Wales gets it’s share of weather extremes. We have no air con on the boat but always found the deck insulation from the sun very good in the tropics when we went below decks compared to Beneteaus etc that we visited. Ian Ocean Hobo SN96 |
|
|
|
Scott Sullivan
Hi,I have an 86 Mango and was hiping you had some photos of the work you did,Thanks so much,Scott
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
SV Hobo Tiempo On Mar 4, 2023, at 2:49 AM, Ian Park <parkianj@...> wrote: |
|
|
|
Excellent info Joerg. For my intended use EG Canadian Maritimes, the Amel seems well capable of being insulated, heated and sailed from protection. Do you have any heat in your enclosed cockpit or does it encroach from below?
David. |
|
|
|
Hi Joerg, Arno, Giorgio, David, John,
I am very happy with Giorgio’s long terms experiences and helpful hints and all other comments and experiences!
This year I will try to do an all boat inner insulation project (sure a bigggg work!) as we plan to spent 3-4 years from next year on in Baltic and Norwegian waters, way up to Kirkenes, but without any ice contact and not staying longtime in autumn and winter times onboard. Patagonia is my dream, I hope life will give me the chance to sail there. It is surely possible in cold waters in summer time to life without any inner boat insulation, but the inner climate will very much improve and condensation should be avoided with it. I will contact Giorgio and others of the group bilaterally and give my experiences later to the group having done and experienced the result of my project, in 2024 I assume.
Concerning heating with Webasto Air Flow and with electrical heaters I want to make 2 comments.
We love our Webasto which gives a light warm airflow, feels good. As the owners cabin is by far the coldest part and the Webasto cannot be regulated separately I have – after talking it over with Olivier Beauté - installed an air outlet at the companionway which can partly be closed. The air is then directed more to the aft cabin then the salon, while the air outlets in the bow are - more or less - closed. First experience with it is really good.
In ports with shore power we use the Swiss Ecomat 2000 heaters with ceramics inside, very low consumption and noise and easy to regulate. Two are permanently installed and one is moveable. The feel is a bit less good as with the Webasto, but it is really good also, and no Diesel is consumed. And they heat very fast, are super safe, remaining in a low temperature range which cannot start burning anything (compared to the cheap heaters from the supermarket). We leave (only) our Ecomat’s on electricity when leaving the boat without any worry. They are pricy, but excellent!
Cheers Alexander SY Oceanica I, Amel54#156, currently in Lagos
|
|
|
|
Hi Alexander, I am very happy to share my experience in the high latitudes with those planning to go there. With regard to humidity, the secret, in addition to a good insolation, is to produce as little as possible and above all to have a good exchange of air. While it might seem counterintuitive at first glance to let in cold air from outside, in reality heating works much better with cold, dry air than with humid air. In this case, in addition to heating the air, it must also heat the water contained inside. And the hotter it gets, the more it contains water which inevitably condenses in the coldest parts of the boat (aft cabin, lockers, hidden corners). It would take some fans that throw out the humid air and others that introduce dry air from the outside. For us Italians who love pasta, cooking it on board is a real drama, but on the Sharki I have fitted a curtain that conveys the steam of the pasta directly towards the porthole above the galley and at the end of cooking we always drain it in the cockpit. For mattresses, it is sufficient to get them up in the morning and leave them to "breathe" for a few hours. During the night it is preferable to keep a porthole open to avoid heavy humidity in the aft cabin. The most important key to combating humidity is ventilation! In short, with a little precaution, life on board will become much more pleasant, allowing you to fully enjoy the panoramas that only high latitudes can offer. Cheers Giorgio Ardrizzi - Saudade III Il Lun 6 Mar 2023, 11:50 Alexander Hofmann <DACJ@...> ha scritto:
|
|
|
|
For me in cold climates I avoid the use of propane/butane at all costs. Propane/butane, when it burns produces CO2 (hopefully no CO) and water (=humidity).
If you have a little induction plate, use it as much as possible when you must cook with hatches closed. -- John Bernard "JB" Duler San Francisco Meltem # 19, Western Med |
|
|
|
Giorgio, John, thanks a lot, very helpful hints. Will come back to you ….! Alexander – SY Oceanica I
|
|
|
|
David, my Webasto is a boiler that produces warm water which is circulated around the boat by a pump. It‘s Webasto Thermo Pro 90D. In each cabin and each head compartment, there is a water/air heat exchanger consisting of a small fan which draws air over the copper tubes with the warm water and blows it into the cabin/head. Kalori/Silencio. Both the boiler and each fan consumes a certain amount of electricity which adds up, but then I‘m not heating the boat to 20C - more like 14-15C, so the fans aren‘t running much and the boiler is heating the water only a small percentage of time. I do not have a heat exchanger in the cockpit but I don‘t think that‘s a problem in the temps we‘ve encountered as you wear warm clothes anyways. In much colder areas than Iceland, I would want a Reflex because of the lack of electricity consumption but then I’ve been told those stoves have their own issues with the flute and maybe even when heeling so they may be difficult to run when sailing.
Regarding condensation, I have induction/electric cooking so that reduces the amount of condensation while cooking by a lot. Also, the 55 in a lot of areas has paneling along the hull, deck and coachroof which effectively creates an air cushion between the outside and the inside of the cabin. So there‘s already a certain amount of insulation built in. Cheers Joerg |
|
|
|
Hello David, Since we bought Mago del Sur in 2016, she has regularly stayed in the water even in German winter. Whenever possible we have lived on board and sailed her as well. The balsa sandwich deck is excellent insulation. The hull sides are naturally less insulating. For winter conditions in Germany or even Brittany (France), where it rarely gets colder than -10°C, it was sufficient to lay 1 cm thick plastic mesh (mattress underlay) on the side walls in the lockers and to the sides and under the mattresses of the berths. The ventilation achieved in this way has largely solved the mould problem. During periods when we were not on board, we heated the boat to about 5°C with continuous-flow fan heaters (Swiss Ecomat) or electric oil radiators. This was sufficient protection against condensation. When we lived on board, we used the Webasto heater and the electric stuff alternatively. For a single trip to colder climates, I would keep the amount of insulation to a minimum. We too plan to go to Tierra del Fuego and Patagonia again with Mago del Sur, but we will not do any insulation beyond what we have now. If necessary, we would insulate the hatches and windows with one or two layers of bubble wrap due to the uniqueness of the trip. It is important to insulate the metal frames of the windows, as the metal conducts the cold well and condensation is preferably created there. Looking back to the experiences of our last Patagonia trip with an aluminium boat, we will not heat the cockpit separately. (But this is a matter of personal preferences.) There is plenty of good, warm clothing. In practice, it wasn't that cold during the day (Patagonian summer); the average temperature during the day was probably around 10 - 12°C. While passing Cape Horn for example we used simple trekking gear, our heavy oilskins were much too warm! Even in Norway, winter temperatures on the coast are rarely extreme, as the sea (Gulf Stream) balances things out here. It is rarely colder than -10°C, usually the winter temperatures are around freezing point in the coastal waters. If you want it warmer in your cockpit, some Amel designs allow to heat the cockpit with outgoing air from the engine compartment.
- I couldn't leave out the other photo, it shows our old boat in the same bay where Giorgio's picture was taken. 😉 - The third photo illustrates that there are no limits to plastic vessels 😉😉 With special regards to Giorgio. When meeting Giorgio and Mariolina in Patagonia in 2006/7 and visiting Saudade we came to one conclusion: if we ever buy a GRP boat, it has to be an Amel. |
|
|
|
I’ve read very positive reviews of the Ecor Pro Dry Fan dehumidifier in cold climates on boats. Use this dehumidifier myself in humid conditions at home. Very happy with it. It’s small in size ( 20x20x20 cm), low in energy consumption and very quiet 40 DB.
|
|
|
