House Bank vs. Engine Start


Mark Garver
 

Okay, so recently I had a main bank failure, but what is disturbing is that the engine wouldn’t start. Confusing as I have a dedicated engine start battery, same for the generator. Has anyone experienced this, or have any idea why? Is there a way around this? I can’t imagine this happening in an anchorage, or at sea.

Thanks,

Mark Garver
SV It’s Good
SM #105


Thomas Kleman
 

When you checked the voltage at the battery and starter, what was the reading ?

Tom and Kirstin
SM2K 422
SV L'ORIENT
Tahiti


Mark Garver
 

The start battery was a bit over 12 Volt, I didn’t check it at the starter. Once I replaced the house bank everything worked fine, which I fine odd.

On May 19, 2021, at 10:58 PM, Thomas Kleman <lorient422@...> wrote:

When you checked the voltage at the battery and starter, what was the reading ?

Tom and Kirstin
SM2K 422
SV L'ORIENT
Tahiti


Thomas Kleman
 

The house bank and start battery should be completely separate. But you've had not 1 but 2 coincidences. On your boat, the state of the house bank seems to influence the start circuit. Before I did anything (like take the boat somewhere), I would label and test the entire start circuit. Maybe a previous owner made a "modification". 

It could also be 2 problems; you may have a problem in the ignition/starter circuit, the start stop solenoid, or something else. 

Sounds like a long weekend with a multimeter.
Good luck.

Tom and Kirstin
SM2K 422
SV L'ORIENT
Tahiti


Dean Gillies
 

On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 01:02 PM, Mark Garver wrote:
Once I replaced the house bank everything worked fine,
Mark,
Can you reproduce the fault by attempting to start the engine while the house bank is turned off?
As Thomas mentioned, maybe you have a PO mod where something in the start/run circuits for the engine depend upon the 24V house circuit being online.
Dean
SV Stella
A54-154


Ian Park
 

Mark
I have a switch in the cabinet where the steering rack is located

I don’t know if it was original. I left the switch in place, but disconnected the relay that did the remote connection. I would just connect with jump leads if needed.

Maybe there is something like this in your setup that has failed?

Ian ‘Ocean Hobo’ SN 96


Bill Kinney
 

Mark,

This is an odd one...  Just by way of additional information, what was the nature of the failure of the main battery bank?  You have the original Volvo engine?

Bill Kinney
sm160, Harmonie
Hollywood, FL


 

Mark,

SM 105 was repowered with a different main engine. I am not sure who did it, but this is probably one source of your problems. I believe that some serious wiring changes were made including the termination of Amel Bonding wires (yellow/green). Additionally, I assume that the new engine was NOT installed isolated and that there is also a crossover of 12 & 24 DC negative at the engine.

A review of your wiring needs to be done.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:29 AM Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
Mark,

This is an odd one...  Just by way of additional information, what was the nature of the failure of the main battery bank?  You have the original Volvo engine?

Bill Kinney
sm160, Harmonie
Hollywood, FL


Mark Garver
 

Bill,

The PO replaced with a brand new Yanmar prior to our purchase. The house bank had multiple failed or weak batteries, wouldn’t maintain a charge although we had been a marina mostly. Of course before learning about running the generator when using the bow thruster I am sure we had taken a toll on them. Engine would start while connected to shore power, me starting it thinking I had turned shore power off. The next day we were departing and o disconnected shore power tried to start the motor and it would start for a second then stop nearly immediately. 

I also don’t have the switch that some seem to have on their SM’s to cut off the main bank. I do have a switch in the port locker but didn’t try that before replacing the house bank.

I just worry about having this happen somewhere at anchor and having to row!

Mark Garver
S/V It’s Good
SM #105


On May 20, 2021, at 11:31 AM, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Mark,

SM 105 was repowered with a different main engine. I am not sure who did it, but this is probably one source of your problems. I believe that some serious wiring changes were made including the termination of Amel Bonding wires (yellow/green). Additionally, I assume that the new engine was NOT installed isolated and that there is also a crossover of 12 & 24 DC negative at the engine.

A review of your wiring needs to be done.

Bill
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:29 AM Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
Mark,

This is an odd one...  Just by way of additional information, what was the nature of the failure of the main battery bank?  You have the original Volvo engine?

Bill Kinney
sm160, Harmonie
Hollywood, FL


Bill Kinney
 

Mark,

Echoing Bill Rouse's comments...  

In an Amel with standard wiring, the connection of shore power would have nothing what ever to do with the engine starting--or not.  Also, in a boat with Amel standard wiring, the state of the 24 Volt system is not at all connected with the ability of the engine to start, or to run.

Based on your description of the symptoms you observe, it would seem your wring has been changed in significant ways.  Without knowing HOW your system has been changed, it is virtually impossible to offer specific advice.

I think you are probably right to be concerned that things are not as they should be, but without knowing how your batteries and engine are wired I am not sure how we can help remotely.

Are you located in a place you can get in contact with a marine electrician who is familiar with Amel systems?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Hollywood, FL


Mark Garver
 

Bill and Bill,

I completely agree. I already discovered the bonding straps that had been cut and have the new copper to run down to the bilge and will have to run new bonding wires because they were cut short.

I’m currently for the summer in the lower Chesapeake Bay, Gloucester Point. Don’t know of any electricians here that are familiar with Amel’s. I may need to check either Delta illegal or Annapolis.

Do you know of any around the Chesapeake?

I have already been ripping out all of the left over wiring from the nav equipment replacement... he went with Ray Marine, instead of B&G which I wasn’t impressed with. 

Thanks everyone, now to get the electrician!

Best,

Mark Garver
S/V It’s Good
SM #105


On May 21, 2021, at 4:40 PM, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:

Mark,

Echoing Bill Rouse's comments...  

In an Amel with standard wiring, the connection of shore power would have nothing what ever to do with the engine starting--or not.  Also, in a boat with Amel standard wiring, the state of the 24 Volt system is not at all connected with the ability of the engine to start, or to run.

Based on your description of the symptoms you observe, it would seem your wring has been changed in significant ways.  Without knowing HOW your system has been changed, it is virtually impossible to offer specific advice.

I think you are probably right to be concerned that things are not as they should be, but without knowing how your batteries and engine are wired I am not sure how we can help remotely.

Are you located in a place you can get in contact with a marine electrician who is familiar with Amel systems?

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Hollywood, FL


karkauai
 

Hi Mark,
I had a lot of work done at Deltaville Boatyard between 2010 and 2016, including the isolated bonding system for the new Yanmar I had installed in Puerto Rico in 2015.  That electrician has moved on (not sure where), but the yard has always gotten the job done right, although at a price.  You might call Keith Ruse ( keith@...; (804) 776-9812 and ask if they have a new electrician who knows Amels. He loves working on Amels, and tried for a while to be a US certified Amel facility...they never even replied, even after I wrote them to recommend him.

If you contact him, tell him I said hi.

Kent
SM 243
Kristy



--
Kent & Iris
KRISTY
SM243


Mark Garver
 

Kent,

Thanks I will reach out to him, it’s not too far for a day sail.

Best,

Mark and Jennifer
S/V It’s Good
SM #105


On May 24, 2021, at 3:41 PM, karkauai via groups.io <karkauai@...> wrote:

Hi Mark,
I had a lot of work done at Deltaville Boatyard between 2010 and 2016. They always did a good job in a timely fashion...at a price.  The electrician who built the isolated bonding system for my new Yanmar  has mived on (not sure where).  I'd call Keith Ruse ((804) 776-9812) and tell him what you need.  I think they replaced the copper strap in my bilge sump in 2010, using the drawings and instructions on this site.

Keith tried to become an Amel certified yard, but even after I wrote Amel to recommend them, he never even got a reply.  If you talk to him, tell him I said Hi.
--
Kent & Iris
KRISTY
SM243