Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced


Alexander Hofmann
 

Dear Amel sailors!

I do use 100 mm of Inox chain with a Wasi-Power-Ball connection and a 42 kg Bügel Anchor on my SY Oceanica I (Amel54) since 12 years, the 3 years of the 1st owner included. The chain has been used in most of all anchoring in this time. 2nd anchor has rarely been used. The ship has made less than 22.000 nm in these years, not very much. I still cannmot life long time onboard, soon to come hopefully. 
In 3 years of this 12 years I have used sometimes the full chain length sometimes, in South & North Britanny and the Canal. Otherwise rarely more than 50 meters. Almost never more than 70 meters.
 
Inox chains are subject to have cracks and to fail after a relevant life time. It is difficult or almost impossible to have a secure check on cracks on a chain, in a way that one can rely that there is no failure coming up anyway. 
 
The questions I do ask myself – and you (in the means of … what would you do on your boat?) - are:
 
1. Would you recommend to change the entire chain now?
2. Would you use it further on, for how many years (in the same usage setting as described)?
3. Would you recommend to change the chain from the beginning to the end to have the already often used 50 meters attached to the boat and not to the anchor?
4. In this case, for how may years would you continue to use the chain.
5. For a new chain, would you opt for galvanized steel or for Inox? Which material (number or material class) would you use or recommend for galvanized steel and for Inox?
 
Thank you for giving me your thoughts about this! 

Alexander
SY Oceanica I Amel 54#156


Bill Kinney
 

Alexander,

For all the reasons you describe I avoid Inox anchor chain.  I have never seen a good, scientifically based, standard for how long inox chain should be expected to last.  So I do not have a recommendation for you on that.  I would recommend not changing out part of the chain. I would worry more about corrosion and undetected cracking on the connecting link than on the chain itself.

One factor that comes into play specifically on the Amel54 is the chain lockers on this boat are quite small.  The smooth surface of the inox chain might allow it to "flow" better.  I am sure some other Amel54 owners who have switched to galvanized chain can speak about this being an issue--or not.

For an Amel 54, using standard 10mm G4 (Sometimes called G43) galvanized chain would be fine. This will be a little bit stronger in breaking strength than the same sized inox.  If possible, stick with chain that has been hot-dipped galvanized, NOT electrogalvanized. Electrogalvanized chain is smoother, prettier, and usually cheaper, but the zinc coating is MUCH thiner than when it is applied by dipping in a tank of molten metal. There are a lot of variables, but electrogalvanized chain in near daily use usually needs a new zinc coating after 2 years, while a good hot dip coating should last five years, or more.

If you do go with inox, I would recommend you use 316L instead of 316.  It is harder to get--and more expensive--but significantly better at resisting the kind of cracking that is the failure mode for inox.
 
We swap our anchor chain end-for-end every time we haul the boat to even out the effects of corrosion and wear. For the kind of high carbon steel used in G4 chain, if it is not overloaded and stretched, and is periodically re-galvanized before corrosion becomes an issue, it has an essentially indefinite life.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


Ruslan Osmonov
 

Take a look at cromox duplex or super duplex. From research I did, 316L is good in cold waters, but in warm waters and longer oxygen starvation it fails faster.  I.e. it not only water temp, but it also matters how long you sit at anchor at time.  

https://www.cromox-us.com/?view=article&id=253&catid=81

For cromox chain I read that after 5 years you can send it to them to be checked and assessed. Maybe give them a call and see if they can do it for your old chain, though 12 years, I think you know what their answers is going to be. 

Checkout their Nautic page. That is AMEL 54 on the video. 😉 
https://www.cromox-us.com/products/nautic

--
Fair winds
Ruslan Osmonov
Phanthom, A54 #44


Ruslan Osmonov
 

correction, after warranty ends (depending on what chain you buy, could be 2, 3, 5 years) you can extend it by sending it to them for inspection. 

--
Fair winds
Ruslan Osmonov
Phanthom, A54 #44


Dean Gillies
 

Creeping this thread a little .. I fitted 100m of new G4 galvanised 3/8th / 10mm chain last year. It consistently jams in my gypsy when deploying.  

Not a big problem when anchoring in a bay, but it's a real nuisance when anchoring stern-to a wharf.
Each time it jams, I need to wait for the gypsy to stop, haul it in a bit, wait for the gypsy to stop then start deploying again. You can imagine what happens in a strong cross-wind or cross current.
The problem is related to twists in the chain. 
Ive checked and measured the chain, it's within spec, I've dropped it all out in 100+m of water to let it untwist, I've installed a new gypsy.  My next plan is to end-for-end it and see if that makes any difference. 

Has anyone else experienced this with the Lewmar Vertical windlass on the 54?

Maybe stainless chain runs better on this windlass?
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Laurens Vos
 

Hi Rusland,

Thanks for the reassuring link and the nice video. 

Laurens 
Fun@Sea A54#92


Vladan SV PAME
 

Hi Dean,

Does your gipsy and chain match in same standard? 

I can check further but think that on Amel originaly was ISO 10 mm gipsy. Did you buy same ISO standard chain?



Best Regards,
Vladan


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2022 10:51:03 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced
 

Creeping this thread a little .. I fitted 100m of new G4 galvanised 3/8th / 10mm chain last year. It consistently jams in my gypsy when deploying.  

Not a big problem when anchoring in a bay, but it's a real nuisance when anchoring stern-to a wharf.
Each time it jams, I need to wait for the gypsy to stop, haul it in a bit, wait for the gypsy to stop then start deploying again. You can imagine what happens in a strong cross-wind or cross current.
The problem is related to twists in the chain. 
Ive checked and measured the chain, it's within spec, I've dropped it all out in 100+m of water to let it untwist, I've installed a new gypsy.  My next plan is to end-for-end it and see if that makes any difference. 

Has anyone else experienced this with the Lewmar Vertical windlass on the 54?

Maybe stainless chain runs better on this windlass?
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


--
Vladan

A54 #157
SV PAME


Nick Newington
 

Hi Dean,

On my 54 I have the same windlass, and 100m of G70 chain. There is no swivel, only an anchor to chain special shackle. I have no problem with the jamming that you describe. 

 Originally there were 85m of chain but I bought an 100m drum of new G70 from Chaineries Limousine. The only problem I have is stacking the chain in the locker. If I have set  say 50m then I have to knock the pile down as it comes in. With the original 85 I never needed to. I might lop off 10m to solve that, but then I Only have 90m! No cake-ism on a boat! Borris you should have been a yachtie before being a politico.….

Coming back to your problem; it is not the vertical windlass concept…must be the chain  or as you say some twist…I actually think swivels do more harm ( create twisting) than good and are a weak link. 

All the best

Nick

S/Y Amelia AML 54-019

On 12 Aug 2022, at 09:20, Vladan SV PAME <vladan.bojic@...> wrote:

Hi Dean,

Does your gipsy and chain match in same standard? 

I can check further but think that on Amel originaly was ISO 10 mm gipsy. Did you buy same ISO standard chain?



Best Regards,
Vladan

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2022 10:51:03 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced
 

Creeping this thread a little .. I fitted 100m of new G4 galvanised 3/8th / 10mm chain last year. It consistently jams in my gypsy when deploying.  

Not a big problem when anchoring in a bay, but it's a real nuisance when anchoring stern-to a wharf.
Each time it jams, I need to wait for the gypsy to stop, haul it in a bit, wait for the gypsy to stop then start deploying again. You can imagine what happens in a strong cross-wind or cross current.
The problem is related to twists in the chain. 
Ive checked and measured the chain, it's within spec, I've dropped it all out in 100+m of water to let it untwist, I've installed a new gypsy.  My next plan is to end-for-end it and see if that makes any difference. 

Has anyone else experienced this with the Lewmar Vertical windlass on the 54?

Maybe stainless chain runs better on this windlass?
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


--
Vladan

A54 #157
SV PAME


Louis Trepanier
 

Hello Dean,

I had galvanized chains installed on both windlass when I got my A 54 in 2008 and experienced the same jamming problems with stressful situations in some busy ports.

I changed to a 10 mm stainless steel chain on the main anchor and kept the galvanized chain on the secondary anchor which is seldom used…and never in a port!

Never had a chain jamming problem since.

Good luck in finding 316 or 316 L affordable chain.

Louis 
S.V. Amelia II

On Aug 12, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Dean Gillies <stella@...> wrote:

Creeping this thread a little .. I fitted 100m of new G4 galvanised 3/8th / 10mm chain last year. It consistently jams in my gypsy when deploying.  

Not a big problem when anchoring in a bay, but it's a real nuisance when anchoring stern-to a wharf.
Each time it jams, I need to wait for the gypsy to stop, haul it in a bit, wait for the gypsy to stop then start deploying again. You can imagine what happens in a strong cross-wind or cross current.
The problem is related to twists in the chain. 
Ive checked and measured the chain, it's within spec, I've dropped it all out in 100+m of water to let it untwist, I've installed a new gypsy.  My next plan is to end-for-end it and see if that makes any difference. 

Has anyone else experienced this with the Lewmar Vertical windlass on the 54?

Maybe stainless chain runs better on this windlass?
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154



WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Alexander,

 

I had on my former boat a 10mm Stainless Steel chain and sailed Caribbean and Pacific, which was 20 years old when sold it in ASIA. If I remember correct it is a WASI and the new owner is still use it.

 

When I bought WASABI there was 85 m of Stainless steel chain on it with an unknown brand. Unfortunately it was in two pieces, 50m and 35m connected with a chain-link.

Because I don’t trust this I decided to change the setup because a linked chain is never a good idea. I’m now using the 50m unlinked part for the second (spare) Windlass.

 

For the prime Anchor I organized 100 m Cromox Duplex chain. Very expensive, but the dealer made a special discount offer together with the Factory (Ketten Wälder GmbH).

The factory warrants for this type of Stainless Steel with the detailed specifications G6 - 1.4462 (AISI 318LN) up to 35 degree water temp.

 

Best rgds.

Ruedi

SY WASABI

AMEL54 #055

E-MAIL: mail@...

 

Von: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> im Auftrag von Alexander Hofmann <DACJ@...>
Antworten an: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Datum: Donnerstag, 11. August 2022 um 17:49
An: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Betreff: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced

 

Dear Amel sailors!

I do use 100 mm of Inox chain with a Wasi-Power-Ball connection and a 42 kg Bügel Anchor on my SY Oceanica I (Amel54) since 12 years, the 3 years of the 1st owner included. The chain has been used in most of all anchoring in this time. 2nd anchor has rarely been used. The ship has made less than 22.000 nm in these years, not very much. I still cannmot life long time onboard, soon to come hopefully. 

In 3 years of this 12 years I have used sometimes the full chain length sometimes, in South & North Britanny and the Canal. Otherwise rarely more than 50 meters. Almost never more than 70 meters.

 

Inox chains are subject to have cracks and to fail after a relevant life time. It is difficult or almost impossible to have a secure check on cracks on a chain, in a way that one can rely that there is no failure coming up anyway. 

 

The questions I do ask myself – and you (in the means of … what would you do on your boat?) - are:

 

1. Would you recommend to change the entire chain now?

2. Would you use it further on, for how many years (in the same usage setting as described)?

3. Would you recommend to change the chain from the beginning to the end to have the already often used 50 meters attached to the boat and not to the anchor?

4. In this case, for how may years would you continue to use the chain.

5. For a new chain, would you opt for galvanized steel or for Inox? Which material (number or material class) would you use or recommend for galvanized steel and for Inox?

 

Thank you for giving me your thoughts about this! 

Alexander
SY Oceanica I Amel 54#156


WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Dean

 

Hope you’re doing well and enjoys the “Meltemi” sailing in Aegean?

I had exactly the same chain/windlass behavior at my first year with WASABI. It took me half season until I discovered that I had the wrong Gypsy for the that type of chain, or vise versa.

Usually after about 50m of deployment it jammed in the Gypsy. I untwisted several times and it worked normal for the beginning, but after let say 5-10 deployments it jammed again.

 

With 10mm Chains there is a small difference between a 10mm DIN 766-Chain and a 10mm ISO-Chain. The link measurement inside the link is either 28mm for a DIN766 chain or 30mm for a ISO chain.

I suppose you have the same problem and normally the wrong Gipsy seems to work fine, but if you listen carefully how it is running it is not a smooth flow.

 

You should check the number printed on the gypsy (you can see it without dismounting the windlass). For the V4/V5 Lewmar Windlass the Gypsy Number for a DIN 766 chain is 202.

If you have a ISO chain you need the Gypsy ASSY 203.

Many Boatyard’s or dealers don’t know this, and it happens to WASABI that someone put the wrong chain on it. After I changed the Gypsy the problem was gone, never had a jam since then and the deployment is very smooth and not much noise.   

 

Happy Sailing

 

Ruedi & Sabina Waldispuehl

 

SY WASABI

AMEL 54#055

 

MMSI: 269322000  

Call Sign: HBY3811

E-Mail: mail@...

 

Von: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> im Auftrag von Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Antworten an: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Datum: Freitag, 12. August 2022 um 09:51
An: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced

 

Creeping this thread a little .. I fitted 100m of new G4 galvanised 3/8th / 10mm chain last year. It consistently jams in my gypsy when deploying.  

Not a big problem when anchoring in a bay, but it's a real nuisance when anchoring stern-to a wharf.
Each time it jams, I need to wait for the gypsy to stop, haul it in a bit, wait for the gypsy to stop then start deploying again. You can imagine what happens in a strong cross-wind or cross current.
The problem is related to twists in the chain. 
Ive checked and measured the chain, it's within spec, I've dropped it all out in 100+m of water to let it untwist, I've installed a new gypsy.  My next plan is to end-for-end it and see if that makes any difference. 

Has anyone else experienced this with the Lewmar Vertical windlass on the 54?

Maybe stainless chain runs better on this windlass?
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Martin Birkhoff
 

Hello Alexander,

I'm a bit late with my answer, but maybe it will help.


In general, no one will be able to give a prognosis about the life span of a chain. There are too many factors involved that cannot be predicted with certainty. For example:

- Frequency of use

- Duration of use

- Water temperatures in the areas visited

- Duration of exposure to particularly warm water

- Salinity of the seas visited

- Conditions in the chain locker


If your stainless steel chain is made of cromox or duplex there is no reason to think about changing the chain.

 

Some words concerning stainless steel:

Not all stainless steel is the same. For anchor chains on worldwide voyages, only a material of the quality 1.4462 (according EN = European standard) can be considered as stainless steel. Trade name Cromox or Duplex. 1.4462 corresponds to AISI 318 LN. Even more corrosion resistant at high water temperatures is so-called Superduplex (1.4507 / AISI F255).


All other stainless steels are not suitable. The photos show material corrosion on stainless steel 1.4404 (= A4, = AISI 316) after a few months' stay in tropical waters (photos: Michael Herbst).


If one don't want to pay the high price for Cromox or Duplex chains, the only alternative for worldwide travel is a classic galvanised chain.


Anchors do not necessarily have to be made of 1.4462 quality material. For example, the WASI bügel anchor, which as far as I know was the original equipment for the Amel 54, is made of 1.4571. It´s corrosion resistance at high water temperatures is not as good as 1.4462, but it is sufficient for an anchor even in tropical waters.


A note on the chain connector: The WASI-Powerball is made of (1.4571 = A5 = AISI 316Ti) which seems to be sufficient. But the grub screws that secure the bolts are made of "normal" stainless steel 1.4404 (= A4, = AISI 316)! Therefore, make sure that the grub screws are in good condition. Check them regularly and replace them from time to time to avoid crevice corrosion of the threads which can occur in tropical waters.

 

Our experiences:

On our circumnavigation 2004 to 2009, the following were on board: WASI duplex chain, 10 mm, 75 m / WASI powerball (3 x) / WASI bügel anchor (1.4571 = A5) 25 kg.

  • absolute no problems with the chain.
  • absolute no problems with the anchor.
  • Powerball: the bolt on the chain side started to come loose at somewhere in Thailand because the securing grub screw had lost it´s thread by corrosion and was no longer holding. Luckily I saw it early enough, otherwise the anchor might have been gone, or the boat.

 

Pros of a Chromox/Duplex chain

- Insensitive to corrosion even in the tropics. No re-galvanising necessary.

- Smooth surface: Stows better in the chain case.

- Higher weight: dampens the movements of the boat at anchor

- Significantly higher breaking load than galvanised chains.

 

Cons of a Chromox/Duplex chain

- Higher weight: More weight in the boats bow locker.

- Higher price

 

Todays equipment on Mago del Sur:

As the duplex chain of our old boat was still in perfect condition, we took it on board the Mago del Sur. It serves as a secondary setup with a WASI-Powerball and a 30 kg WASI bügel anchor (1.4571 = A5 = AISI 316Ti). The third pic is from today and shows this chain. The chain is from 2000. It was intensively used from 2000 to 2018 including a five year circumnavigation. In our point of view there is no end of lifetime to see.

Main anchor now is a 45 kg Ultra on a 13 mm Duplex chain (50 m) from Ketten-Wälder. A flip swivel from Ultra-Marine serves as connector.

Both chains are DIN chains, so we had to change the existing chain nuts of the windlasses.

For us, there was no question of staying with duplex chains: The chain, together with anchor and chain connector is the life insurance of the boat and possibly also ours.

 

Interesting information also here: https://www.ketten-waelder.de/images/pdf/cromox_-_technical_paper_-_things_to_consider_when_purchasing_anchor_chains.pdf


Martin Birkhoff
 

Best regards
Martin
Mago del Sur - 54#40
currently Île de Frioul, France


Martin Birkhoff
 

Hi all,

triggered by the discussion, I looked into the matter a little further. I called some suppliers and finally Ketten-Wälder. The result is interesting:
Cromox is merely a brand name. The term does not refer to any specific chain quality, as I had assumed so far, and it cannot be equated with duplex steel generally. 
If you want to be sure of choosing a material suitable for tropical waters, you have to look for the specific material code. Duplex = EN 1.4462 or AISI 318LN, Super Duplex = EN 1.4507 or AISI F255.
 
Best regards

Martin 
Mago del Sur - 54#40