Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced - chain twist


WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Dean

 

Hope you’re doing well and enjoys the “Meltemi” sailing in Aegean?

I had exactly the same chain/windlass behavior at my first year with WASABI. It took me half season until I discovered that I had the wrong Gypsy for the that type of chain, or vise versa.

Usually after about 50m of deployment it jammed in the Gypsy. I untwisted several times and it worked normal for the beginning, but after let say 5-10 deployments it jammed again.

 

With 10mm Chains there is a small difference between a 10mm DIN 766-Chain and a 10mm ISO-Chain. The link measurement inside the link is either 28mm for a DIN766 chain or 30mm for a ISO chain.

I suppose you have the same problem and normally the wrong Gipsy seems to work fine, but if you listen carefully how it is running it is not a smooth flow.

 

You should check the number printed on the gypsy (you can see it without dismounting the windlass). For the V4/V5 Lewmar Windlass the Gypsy Number for a DIN 766 chain is 202.

If you have a ISO chain you need the Gypsy ASSY 203.

 

Many Boatyard’s or dealers don’t know this, and it happens to WASABI that someone put the wrong chain on it. After I changed the Gypsy the problem was gone, never had a jam since then and the deployment is very smooth and not much noise.   

 

Happy Sailing

 

Ruedi & Sabina Waldispuehl

 

SY WASABI

AMEL 54#055

 

MMSI: 269322000  

Call Sign: HBY3811

E-Mail: mail@...

 

Von: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> im Auftrag von Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Antworten an: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Datum: Freitag, 12. August 2022 um 09:51
An: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced

 

Creeping this thread a little .. I fitted 100m of new G4 galvanised 3/8th / 10mm chain last year. It consistently jams in my gypsy when deploying.  

Not a big problem when anchoring in a bay, but it's a real nuisance when anchoring stern-to a wharf.
Each time it jams, I need to wait for the gypsy to stop, haul it in a bit, wait for the gypsy to stop then start deploying again. You can imagine what happens in a strong cross-wind or cross current.
The problem is related to twists in the chain. 
Ive checked and measured the chain, it's within spec, I've dropped it all out in 100+m of water to let it untwist, I've installed a new gypsy.  My next plan is to end-for-end it and see if that makes any difference. 

Has anyone else experienced this with the Lewmar Vertical windlass on the 54?

Maybe stainless chain runs better on this windlass?
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Dean Gillies
 

Hi All,
Thanks for the pointers, much appreciated. I have an ISO 10mm chain and a 203 Gypsy.
Here is a short video showing part of the problem. As you can see, the chain retrieves perfectly, but jumps around the gypsy when deploying. I think this is contributing to the twist problem ... or maybe it's being caused by the twist problem!!

Ruedi, we are now in Crete, and enjoying it very much. Will catch you on WhatsApp later on :)
Nick, we'll be around Kalymnos/Kos in early September, so would be great to meet up if schedules align.


Cheers

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


David Crisp
 

Hi Dean,

I also have problems with chain twist.

I have 10mm stainless steel chain, I don't know what my gypsy is (and I'm not aboard Wilna Grace to look) but the chain and gypsy are original from new so I had assumed everything is correctly sized.  Letting out the chain I find that after maybe 30m (it varies) the chain starts making jumping noises.  I have watched the chain in the chain locker whilst deploying and when this 'jumping' happens and it appears to be caused when the twisted chain reaches the hawse tube, stopping the flow upwards until the twist 'falls down' the hanging chain to the pile and then the chain moves out again.  

After 2-3 months of cruising, if I work all the twist up to the secured end of the chain I find I have 'lost' about ~10m of effective chain to twist. See attached video.

So far as I can see the jumping only occurs when the twist situation arises.  Having removed the twist the chain deploys smoothly without any problem.  Next time I'm aboard I'll check my chain and gypsy spec's (per Reudi's advice) and also watch the gypsy/chain close up as you have done.

--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58


Dean Gillies
 

Hi David,
Your post is really interesting. I'm moored alongside at the moment, so I just let out all of my chain and helped it to untwist in the locker as you did. I worked the twists all the way to the bitter end.
 
I had to unwind 15 turns, also in an anti-clockwise direction as per your video. 

I've attached two pics and a video which shows the chain trying to untwist itself as it deploys. If you look at the photo of the chain deploying across the  bow, you can actually see it twisting anti-clockwise between the gypsy and the bow roller.  I wonder if this is normal? Note that only the chain was deploying, the anchor was secured just over the boy, so it's not caused by the anchor spinning itself.
Is it possible for a chain to have a twisting bias? 

Anyway, I have again untwisted the chain. Let's see how it performs over the coming weeks.

cheers

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Laurens Vos
 

Interesting problem.
What happens if you let the full chain out (100 meter) till the bitter end in water MORE as 100 meter deep. The boat is NOT moving through the water. Let the chain unwind itself for some time. Get the chain in again. Will the twisting still occur after this procedure? 


Nick Newington
 

Dean, 
How about putting a swivel on the inboard end and occasionally letting all the chain out to the bitter end..
It is interesting that I do not have this problem.  Could be because I haul out after a couple of months. Then I always drop all the chain and rinse the chain and locker and in so doing get rid of any twist.

Nick 
Amelia 
AML 54-019


On 13 Aug 2022, at 21:13, Laurens Vos <laurensrineke@...> wrote:

Interesting problem.
What happens if you let the full chain out (100 meter) till the bitter end in water MORE as 100 meter deep. The boat is NOT moving through the water. Let the chain unwind itself for some time. Get the chain in again. Will the twisting still occur after this procedure? 


Dean Gillies
 

Hi Laurens,
Yes! What you suggest is exactly what I have done a few times in the past. It helps for a while, but the problem returns.  Today is the first time I have tried letting all the chain out when in harbour and manually undoing and counting the number of twists. At least I now have a way to monitor the number of twists next time I have to do this.

Hi Nick, 
Excellent point. I think the regular dropping and untwisting of the chain when on the hard stand will help mask this problem. I generally do it once per year, but the boat stayed in the water last winter, so that may explain why it seems worse this year. 
I don't think a swivel at the bitter end would help, the twisting and mangling of the chain is too severe. You would still have to untangle it manually..

I'm interested to know if others observe the twisting of the chain between the gypsy and the bow roller as the chain runs out.

Cheers

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Hi Gang,

I had the problem on Eleuthera and solved it by using a different roller on the bow hardware; carved out in the center portion of the roller.   Shaped like “cheeks” on either side it tends to hold the chain links in the groove.  Requires a bit more care when leaving an anchorage but if your chain is not tangled when released, it is unlikely to become very twisted in a day or two…  It works ok and I rarely had to untwist the chain.  

When it was twisted, I untwisted to the bow roller then rolled it in slowly enough to let it untwist itself.  Swapped the chain end for end each year and dumped all the contents at least twice per year in deep water .. I also had a good swivel on the anchor and greased it as needed throughout the year.

Good luck

Jean-Pierre Germain EX Eleuthera, SM007



On 13 Aug 2022, at 17:00, Dean Gillies <stella@...> wrot

Hi Laurens,
Yes! What you suggest is exactly what I have done a few times in the past. It helps for a while, but the problem returns.  Today is the first time I have tried letting all the chain out when in harbour and manually undoing and counting the number of twists. At least I now have a way to monitor the number of twists next time I have to do this.

Hi Nick, 
Excellent point. I think the regular dropping and untwisting of the chain when on the hard stand will help mask this problem. I generally do it once per year, but the boat stayed in the water last winter, so that may explain why it seems worse this year. 
I don't think a swivel at the bitter end would help, the twisting and mangling of the chain is too severe. You would still have to untangle it manually..

I'm interested to know if others observe the twisting of the chain between the gypsy and the bow roller as the chain runs out.

Cheers

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154



Dean Gillies
 

Hi JP,
Thanks for that. My 54 came to me with the centre groove in the bow roller. I don’t know for sure, but I suspect it was delivered that way by Amel.

I don’t use a swivel, so if the manual untwisting I’ve done so far doesn’t help, I might try a swivel. I’m sure I’ve got a Wasi Powerball stowed somewhere. 

Cheers

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Bruno COTTE
 

I don’t understand this “
Mode effect “not to install a swivel …. As the benefits are enormous: it helps not to have a twisted chain which could be broken easier due to twist 
It helps to have the anchor in the right position when lifted and it gives a better anchorage when the boat is turning . If you have the appropriate resistance in terms of loads limits it is a must have on an anchor ! 


Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 14 août 2022 à 19:22, Dean Gillies <stella@...> a écrit :



Hi JP,
Thanks for that. My 54 came to me with the centre groove in the bow roller. I don’t know for sure, but I suspect it was delivered that way by Amel.

I don’t use a swivel, so if the manual untwisting I’ve done so far doesn’t help, I might try a swivel. I’m sure I’ve got a Wasi Powerball stowed somewhere. 

Cheers

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


David Crisp
 

I tried solving the problem per the suggestion of letting all the chain out in deep water and allowing it to untwist. However, once the twist is located in the anchor locker, the larger diameter of the twisted chain means it cannot pass up through the hawse pipe so all you end up doing is working all the twist down to the bitter end.  It's then necessary to release the bitter end, let off all the twist and then reattach the bitter end.  I prefer to do this in the safety of the dock/ashore.

As Dean mentions he does, each season when on the hard I now let out all my chain, release twist at the bitter end and flush with fresh water before restowing.  The big puzzle I'd like to solve: how the twist is being put into the chain in the first place???


--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58


Chris Paul
 

HI David,
Here is my guess as to chain twisting.
I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong and interested if someone can add more.
I am also sorry if everyone knows this and I'm boring them.

Where I have sailed mostly, Southern Australia (Tasmania 40S to QLD 15S), the weather systems come from the west - High (anticlockwise) & Low (clockwise) rotation.
(assuming no out of the ordinary events (cyclones))
If you are at one location the winds direction rotate anticlockwise over a weather cycle (High - Low).
So on average it probably takes about a week to complete a weather cycle.
If you are on anchor for that week you gain one twist in your anchor in the anticlockwise direction.

Of course if you are in a tidal area it may be different (maybe you gain one twist every 12 hours??)
In tropical areas (ITC) it is probably different again??

Sea breezes and the corresponding night breezes are another effect.
On the Australian east coast the sea breezes build up during the day & also veer anticlockwise (E to NE) 

In the Northern Hemisphere the winds rotate in the opposite direction (clockwise twist).
So I guess the chain twist is related to the earths rotation & coriolis forces.
I guess it is a similar question to which way the water rotates down a sink??

I think wind "veer" means the wind goes the usual way for that hemisphere & wind "backing" means the opposite.
This is my understanding but I'm sure google knows much more - I have not checked. 







Regards, Chris Paul 
SM #352
Whangarei NZ


On Tuesday, 16 August 2022 at 01:42:02 am NZST, David Crisp <david@...> wrote:


I tried solving the problem per the suggestion of letting all the chain out in deep water and allowing it to untwist. However, once the twist is located in the anchor locker, the larger diameter of the twisted chain means it cannot pass up through the hawse pipe so all you end up doing is working all the twist down to the bitter end.  It's then necessary to release the bitter end, let off all the twist and then reattach the bitter end.  I prefer to do this in the safety of the dock/ashore.

As Dean mentions he does, each season when on the hard I now let out all my chain, release twist at the bitter end and flush with fresh water before restowing.  The big puzzle I'd like to solve: how the twist is being put into the chain in the first place???


--
David Crisp
SV Wilna Grace
Amel 54 #58


Alexander Hofmann
 

Dear Bill, Ruslan, Dean, Laurens, Vladan, Nick, Louis, Rudolf, Martin, Germain, Bruno, David and Chris,

 

Thanks a lot for your extensive comments to my questions, which has brought a lot of insights, experience and knowledge to me.

It has helped me a lot indeed on my path for taking my decision.

 

Fair winds and sees, and good holdings with strong and reliable chains! 😊

Alexander

SY Oceanica I, Amel54#156

 


Dean Gillies
 

Hi all,
I've had a bit of a forensic look at both my anchoring systems this morning.  The attached pdf summarises my findings.
Essentially, my problem is being caused by the gypsy not loading correctly on deployment, thereby causing the chain to twist inside the locker.
This happens on both my old chain and windlass and my new(ish) chain and windlass.

I have one big request ... can someone please show me a 30 second video of their Lewmar V5/6 Vertical windlass deploying chain cleanly without this skipping on the gypsy? I need some faith that I am not chasing something that is actually just a defect in Lewmar's Windlass design.

Thanks
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Roque
 

Hi Dean. Hope you are fine

Sent you a PM

Regards

Roque

Em ter., 16 de ago. de 2022 às 08:08, Dean Gillies <stella@...> escreveu:

Hi all,
I've had a bit of a forensic look at both my anchoring systems this morning.  The attached pdf summarises my findings.
Essentially, my problem is being caused by the gypsy not loading correctly on deployment, thereby causing the chain to twist inside the locker.
This happens on both my old chain and windlass and my new(ish) chain and windlass.

I have one big request ... can someone please show me a 30 second video of their Lewmar V5/6 Vertical windlass deploying chain cleanly without this skipping on the gypsy? I need some faith that I am not chasing something that is actually just a defect in Lewmar's Windlass design.

Thanks
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


--
Roque
Attika A54 117
Paraty - Brazil 


Sv Garulfo
 

Dean,


Are you 100% sure you don't have an incompatibility between you chain and gipsy?
A lewmar gypsy stamped 202 is for the DIN standard, with as a shorter step than the ISO standard (28mm Vs 30mm). 

Until last year we had ISO chain with a DIN gypsy and although it was fine initially, the chain started jumping when it wore out and the step became longer. That definitely caused severe twisting inside the chain locker. 

I don't know the history of that chain set-up on the boat but the second windlass has the same incompatibility, and I'm pretty sure neither the chain nor gypsy have been changed since the boat left the yard...

As an aside, I'm not convinced a swivel at the boat end of the chain would automatically resolve a twisted chain in the locker for anything more than a few turns. That's because the twists will only transfer to the swivel once the last length of the chain is off the locker floor, meaning most of the chain has been deployed, which does not happen smoothly with more than a few turns. So still needs a fair amount of manual untwisting/cursing.  On the other hand, a swivel would save untying the connecting line.



Thomas
GARULFO
A54-122
Vuda, Fiji 

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, 13:08 Dean Gillies, <stella@...> wrote:
Hi all,
I've had a bit of a forensic look at both my anchoring systems this morning.  The attached pdf summarises my findings.
Essentially, my problem is being caused by the gypsy not loading correctly on deployment, thereby causing the chain to twist inside the locker.
This happens on both my old chain and windlass and my new(ish) chain and windlass.

I have one big request ... can someone please show me a 30 second video of their Lewmar V5/6 Vertical windlass deploying chain cleanly without this skipping on the gypsy? I need some faith that I am not chasing something that is actually just a defect in Lewmar's Windlass design.

Thanks
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Dean Gillies
 

Hi Thomas,
I hear you, and yes I am 100% sure.  Both of the Gypsies are stamped as 203, and both of the chains measure up as ISO standard.  If that wasn't enough evidence ... on chain retrieval both chains run absolutely perfectly ALL the time. I'm sure that would not happen if there was a mismatch, for example if my Gypsies had the incorrect part number stamped on them for example!

I agree about the inboard swivel, and actually I reckon all of us can undo and re-tie knots (er I mean bends of course!!) fairly effectively.  It just means the lovely whipping that was done in the factory is a thing of the past!

I know you are not near Garulfo, but are you confident that your chains are deploying without any kind of skipping at all?

Cheers
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Dean

 

I made some Videos of the Lewmar V5/6 Vertical Windlass. Also made a slow Motion Video so you can perfectly see the deploying chain without any incorrect loading.

Unfortunately the files where too big to send by E-mail. I have therefore only attached one and will send you a slow motion video separately into your E-Mail if you like.

 

In your picture I can clearly see the misfit of the link into the gipsy groves and that incorrect loading is creating the twist in my opinion. Exactly this was my observation and created the twist when I had the wrong Gipsy. In your case there is no misfit between chain and gipsy as you said. But probably your galvanized chain is a bit out of tolerance. Only 1-2 mm per link creates 1-2 cm after some meters, which is then 2 cm out of center in the gipsy grove and this is the clunk noise you hear. This was creating the twist in my case with the 2mm difference between ISO and DIN.

After the chain was fitting the gipsy, there was no clonk, nor strange noise all the way out and back. No twist since 3 years and over hundred anchor maneuvers.

 

Best regards from Anchorage in Panarea

 

Ruedi Waldispuehl

 

SY WASABI

AMEL54 #055

 

 

Von: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> im Auftrag von Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Antworten an: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Datum: Dienstag, 16.
August 2022 um 13:08
An: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced - chain twist

 

Hi all,
I've had a bit of a forensic look at both my anchoring systems this morning.  The attached pdf summarises my findings.
Essentially, my problem is being caused by the gypsy not loading correctly on deployment, thereby causing the chain to twist inside the locker.
This happens on both my old chain and windlass and my new(ish) chain and windlass.

I have one big request ... can someone please show me a 30 second video of their Lewmar V5/6 Vertical windlass deploying chain cleanly without this skipping on the gypsy? I need some faith that I am not chasing something that is actually just a defect in Lewmar's Windlass design.

Thanks
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


WASABI - Rudolf Waldispuehl
 

Hi Dean

 

I confirm that on WASABI the chain deployment is without any kind of skipping at all. And when I bought WASABI there was the original gipsy 203 (ISO) with a DIN SS-Chain the former owner has installed. The A54 was new for me and I had no specific arguments about the skipping. We were able to deploy and retrieve the Anchor easily for most of the time, except after 10-20 anchor maneuvers, if the situation needed to deploy more than 50 meter. BTW this happened once in a marina with anchoring stern to a wharf as you described, the blockage occurred due to twisting.

 

Because it was cheaper to buy a new gipsy than a new chain, in installed 2 new 202 DIN766 gipsy and my 2 years old Cromox duplex is a DIN766 chain. Completely happy with the setup.

 

Happy sailing and best regards

Ruedi

SY WASABI

AMEL54 #055

 

Von: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> im Auftrag von Dean Gillies <stella@...>
Antworten an: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Datum: Dienstag, 16. August 2022 um 15:23
An: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Betreff: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inox Chain for main anchor to be replaced - chain twist

 

Hi Thomas,
I hear you, and yes I am 100% sure.  Both of the Gypsies are stamped as 203, and both of the chains measure up as ISO standard.  If that wasn't enough evidence ... on chain retrieval both chains run absolutely perfectly ALL the time. I'm sure that would not happen if there was a mismatch, for example if my Gypsies had the incorrect part number stamped on them for example!

I agree about the inboard swivel, and actually I reckon all of us can undo and re-tie knots (er I mean bends of course!!) fairly effectively.  It just means the lovely whipping that was done in the factory is a thing of the past!

I know you are not near Garulfo, but are you confident that your chains are deploying without any kind of skipping at all?

Cheers
--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Paul Harries
 

Is there a way to check specs on gypsy and chain to see if one or other is worn or out of spec?


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer