Introduction and question wrt stay-sail and running rigging


Thomas Wink
 

Hi All,

My name is Thomas, proud owner of Maraumu 46 #32. I am planning a solo trip to the Azores, from Holland, this year. As I will be doing a bit of upwind sailing I am looking into installing running back-stays to prevent bending while sailing with the staysail. The staysail is mounted about 15% below mast head, as can be seen in this photo:
jib.jpg

The red line is where I suppose the running back-stay could connect. I haven't noticed much pumping while going to windward during sea trials, although there is some slight bending of the top half of the mast. 

I would like to know your thoughts on the necessity of a running back-stay, and whether the placement would be correct like this.

Many thanks in advance!

Thomas


Gerhard Mueller
 

Usually there is a stay between main and mizzen.
--
Gerhard Mueller
Amel Sharki #60
Currently North Sea, Germany


 

You should also check closely how the previous owner attached the non-Amel staysail to the deck. Most that I have seen have either used a backing plate on the balsa-cored deck, attached it to the windlass, or they added a chain plate to the divider between the two sail lockers. None of these are adequate for the loads you might have. The first Amel made specifically for a staysail was the A54.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Tue, Mar 1, 2022, 09:13 Gerhard Mueller via groups.io <carcode=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
Usually there is a stay between main and mizzen.
--
Gerhard Mueller
Amel Sharki #60
Currently North Sea, Germany


Alan Leslie
 

Hi Thomas,

Absolutely you need running backstays for a staysail like that to counteract the load on the mast produced by the winded sail at it's attachment point on the mast.

We have a staysail on Elyse with running back stays held forward when not in use, but we have rarely used it.
When have we used it? 
Hove to in 60+ knots with staysail and mizzen, worked very well
Broad reaching, inside the genoa, but it didn't add much.

I'm seriously thinking of taking it down as 
1. it's difficult to sheet because of the forward stays on the main mast. (We have snatchblocks on the sheets so we can reroute them inside or outside the fwd stays)
2. it makes tacking with the genoa rather difficult.
3. I'm not to keen on how it was installed at the tack. It's on a manual furler and it's attached to a fitting that goes through the deck into a large about 12mm thick  stainless plate that runs from the windlass to the bow fitting.
It really should have a rigging wire with a turnbuckle under deck attached to the stem to take the loads directly to the stem, rather than relying on not bending the steel plate.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


JB Duler
 

Thomas,


Be careful. We had a reputable shop rebuild that on a previous Swan.


Hire a professional rigging shop. Make sure they have adequate limits  on their general liability insurance policy.


They must examine the mast, design the new running backstays, calculate the loads, and reinforce where needed.


Of course your Amel is built like a tank but she was not designed for that.

Three points: the tack, the mast and the attachment for the blocks of the running back stays.


Assume that one day you will have 50-60 knots, main and mizzen furled. Engine is down. And you need to go upwind, away from the shore. You will need that setup to hold very well.


1. mast reinforcement. You want the rigger to build hardware around that point (better if the SS bracket goes in front of the mast) and if possible bolt everything. Don't just put some rivets up there.

2. tack: plenty of messages on the subject. Add fiberglass + epoxy to reinforce the vertical bulkhead where the SS plate will be bolted. DO NOT just screw something on the deck. I assume that the baby stay will be removable with turnbuckles. You need that stay to be super tight (plan for heavy winds)

3. reinforce the attachment points of the blocks. I assume you'll use dyneema and not SS for the running back stays (lighter and less prone to bang around). Ask around.


I think having a second, removable baby stay with running backs provides added security.


Once in a cyclone we broke the hydraulics of the back stay as we were falling off a massive breaking wave. Without the running backs I am not sure we would have made it.



--
John Bernard "JB" Duler
San Francisco
Meltem # 19, Western Med


Thomas Wink
 

Hi Gerhard,

Yes their certainly is a pigeon stay, just not visible on the photo.


On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:13 PM Gerhard Mueller via groups.io <carcode=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
Usually there is a stay between main and mizzen.
--
Gerhard Mueller
Amel Sharki #60
Currently North Sea, Germany


Thomas Wink
 

Hi Alan,

Thank you for your thoughts, I will take them into consideration.
The stay is attached via chain plate on the vertical bulkhead:


On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 9:59 PM Alan Leslie <s.v.elyse@...> wrote:
Hi Thomas,

Absolutely you need running backstays for a staysail like that to counteract the load on the mast produced by the winded sail at it's attachment point on the mast.

We have a staysail on Elyse with running back stays held forward when not in use, but we have rarely used it.
When have we used it? 
Hove to in 60+ knots with staysail and mizzen, worked very well
Broad reaching, inside the genoa, but it didn't add much.

I'm seriously thinking of taking it down as 
1. it's difficult to sheet because of the forward stays on the main mast. (We have snatchblocks on the sheets so we can reroute them inside or outside the fwd stays)
2. it makes tacking with the genoa rather difficult.
3. I'm not to keen on how it was installed at the tack. It's on a manual furler and it's attached to a fitting that goes through the deck into a large about 12mm thick  stainless plate that runs from the windlass to the bow fitting.
It really should have a rigging wire with a turnbuckle under deck attached to the stem to take the loads directly to the stem, rather than relying on not bending the steel plate.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Thomas Wink
 

Hi JB,

I replaced all standing rigging last year, before our trip to Norway. I got a quote from my rigger to install the running back stays. The quote includes Selden Backing plates with T-eye's. You mentioned the SS bracket going in front of the mast, I assume this would have to be custom made, or do you know of any alternatives?

Best regards,
Thomas


On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 4:41 AM JB Duler <jbduler@...> wrote:

Thomas,


Be careful. We had a reputable shop rebuild that on a previous Swan.


Hire a professional rigging shop. Make sure they have adequate limits  on their general liability insurance policy.


They must examine the mast, design the new running backstays, calculate the loads, and reinforce where needed.


Of course your Amel is built like a tank but she was not designed for that.

Three points: the tack, the mast and the attachment for the blocks of the running back stays.


Assume that one day you will have 50-60 knots, main and mizzen furled. Engine is down. And you need to go upwind, away from the shore. You will need that setup to hold very well.


1. mast reinforcement. You want the rigger to build hardware around that point (better if the SS bracket goes in front of the mast) and if possible bolt everything. Don't just put some rivets up there.

2. tack: plenty of messages on the subject. Add fiberglass + epoxy to reinforce the vertical bulkhead where the SS plate will be bolted. DO NOT just screw something on the deck. I assume that the baby stay will be removable with turnbuckles. You need that stay to be super tight (plan for heavy winds)

3. reinforce the attachment points of the blocks. I assume you'll use dyneema and not SS for the running back stays (lighter and less prone to bang around). Ask around.


I think having a second, removable baby stay with running backs provides added security.


Once in a cyclone we broke the hydraulics of the back stay as we were falling off a massive breaking wave. Without the running backs I am not sure we would have made it.



--
John Bernard "JB" Duler
San Francisco
Meltem # 19, Western Med


JB Duler
 

Hi Thomas,

I am not sure they are custom made. They are only so many many mast profiles and size. Selden or sparcraft may have that for your profile.
Good luck with the project,
--
John Bernard "JB" Duler
San Francisco
Meltem # 19, Western Med


Chris Paul
 

Hi Thomas,


See Attached word document for my inner forestay set up.        

Hope this helps you Thomas.
Any comments, improvements, concerns whatever please reply with your thoughts.

Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ


Thomas Wink
 

Hi Chris,

Interesting to see your setup. I agree with your concerns.. you might try upwind performance with the stay sail. For my 46ft Maramu the performance is great above 20kts of true wind. Very smooth sailing and just a bit more angle on the tacks. My staysail is a 95% jib, so pretty small, and easy to handle. You might want to try it out first to see if there is any benefit..

How about the mast fittings? Do you have any pictures on that?

Best regards,
Thomas


On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 4:54 AM Chris Paul via groups.io <chris__paul=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Thomas,


See Attached word document for my inner forestay set up.        

Hope this helps you Thomas.
Any comments, improvements, concerns whatever please reply with your thoughts.

Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ


Chris Paul
 

Hi Thomas,
Here is a photo of the top of the staysail. It is attached at the same height as the upper spreader. The running backstays are attached to the inside of the upper spreader. 


On my other (smaller) cutters the staysail was particularly useful when used in conjunction with a high cut jib.  This setup worked really well from about 15kn up wind & reaching and also poled out in higher winds. Changing headsail on the run is a big task so I rarely used the high cut jib. 

Inline image

Regards, 
Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ



On Thursday, 3 March 2022, 09:02:22 pm NZDT, Thomas Wink <poedts@...> wrote:


Hi Chris,

Interesting to see your setup. I agree with your concerns.. you might try upwind performance with the stay sail. For my 46ft Maramu the performance is great above 20kts of true wind. Very smooth sailing and just a bit more angle on the tacks. My staysail is a 95% jib, so pretty small, and easy to handle. You might want to try it out first to see if there is any benefit..

How about the mast fittings? Do you have any pictures on that?

Best regards,
Thomas

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 4:54 AM Chris Paul via groups.io <chris__paul=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Thomas,


See Attached word document for my inner forestay set up.        

Hope this helps you Thomas.
Any comments, improvements, concerns whatever please reply with your thoughts.

Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ


Thomas Wink
 

Hi All,

I just wanted to update you all on the furling jib/ cutter configuration for my Maramu. I arrived at the Azores a few weeks ago. The trip from the Isles of Scilly to Terceira took me 10 days. It was a beautiful trip, but mostly up-wind sailing.

The first thing I did upon arrival is remove the jib and its furler. I only used it once, when beating into 30 knots, so most of the time it was in the way of the genoa.  Also, because of the forward lower stays on the main mast prevent sheeting in properly. The jib was sheeted on the rails on the side of the boat. The angle of attack upwind is thus not great. 

I'm converting the whole setup with a removable stay, because I would like to be able to hoist a storm jib as well.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and comments!
Regards
Thomas on Maramu #32


On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 2:40 AM Chris Paul via groups.io <chris__paul=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Here is a photo of the top of the staysail. It is attached at the same height as the upper spreader. The running backstays are attached to the inside of the upper spreader. 


On my other (smaller) cutters the staysail was particularly useful when used in conjunction with a high cut jib.  This setup worked really well from about 15kn up wind & reaching and also poled out in higher winds. Changing headsail on the run is a big task so I rarely used the high cut jib. 

Inline image

Regards, 
Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ



On Thursday, 3 March 2022, 09:02:22 pm NZDT, Thomas Wink <poedts@...> wrote:


Hi Chris,

Interesting to see your setup. I agree with your concerns.. you might try upwind performance with the stay sail. For my 46ft Maramu the performance is great above 20kts of true wind. Very smooth sailing and just a bit more angle on the tacks. My staysail is a 95% jib, so pretty small, and easy to handle. You might want to try it out first to see if there is any benefit..

How about the mast fittings? Do you have any pictures on that?

Best regards,
Thomas

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 4:54 AM Chris Paul via groups.io <chris__paul=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Thomas,


See Attached word document for my inner forestay set up.        

Hope this helps you Thomas.
Any comments, improvements, concerns whatever please reply with your thoughts.

Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ


 

Thomas,

I am going to tell you what I know filled in with some opinions.

The foredeck of your Amel was not designed to take vertical loads. The genoa is connected to a very strong stay. Take a look and you will see that none of the genoa load is applied to the deck. Some people add an inner forestay by using the bulkhead separating the two forward deck compartments. This is also NOT designed to take vertical loads. The people who make this mistake fall into 2 categories:
  1. 80-90% - Worked fine with no issues. These people either never had very strong sea conditions to cause an issue, or they have problems they have not yet noticed.
  2. 10-20% Serious damage has occurred.
My guess is there is a 10-20% chance that serious damage will occur if you do not do this right and encounter strong sea conditions. This is the reason I would advise against this, but also the reason that 80-90% of the people will tell you "no problems, do it."

My advice is to look closely at the genoa chainplate on your Maramu from the attachment point above the deck to the attachment point on the bow. This is the correct design for vertical loads.
image.png

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 8:19 AM Thomas Wink <poedts@...> wrote:
Hi All,

I just wanted to update you all on the furling jib/ cutter configuration for my Maramu. I arrived at the Azores a few weeks ago. The trip from the Isles of Scilly to Terceira took me 10 days. It was a beautiful trip, but mostly up-wind sailing.

The first thing I did upon arrival is remove the jib and its furler. I only used it once, when beating into 30 knots, so most of the time it was in the way of the genoa.  Also, because of the forward lower stays on the main mast prevent sheeting in properly. The jib was sheeted on the rails on the side of the boat. The angle of attack upwind is thus not great. 

I'm converting the whole setup with a removable stay, because I would like to be able to hoist a storm jib as well.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and comments!
Regards
Thomas on Maramu #32

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 2:40 AM Chris Paul via groups.io <chris__paul=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Here is a photo of the top of the staysail. It is attached at the same height as the upper spreader. The running backstays are attached to the inside of the upper spreader. 


On my other (smaller) cutters the staysail was particularly useful when used in conjunction with a high cut jib.  This setup worked really well from about 15kn up wind & reaching and also poled out in higher winds. Changing headsail on the run is a big task so I rarely used the high cut jib. 

Inline image

Regards, 
Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ



On Thursday, 3 March 2022, 09:02:22 pm NZDT, Thomas Wink <poedts@...> wrote:


Hi Chris,

Interesting to see your setup. I agree with your concerns.. you might try upwind performance with the stay sail. For my 46ft Maramu the performance is great above 20kts of true wind. Very smooth sailing and just a bit more angle on the tacks. My staysail is a 95% jib, so pretty small, and easy to handle. You might want to try it out first to see if there is any benefit..

How about the mast fittings? Do you have any pictures on that?

Best regards,
Thomas

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 4:54 AM Chris Paul via groups.io <chris__paul=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Thomas,


See Attached word document for my inner forestay set up.        

Hope this helps you Thomas.
Any comments, improvements, concerns whatever please reply with your thoughts.

Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ


Thomas Wink
 

Hi Bill,

Thanks again for your advise. Duly noted!

On Sun, 10 Jul 2022, 13:51 CW Bill Rouse, <brouse@...> wrote:
Thomas,

I am going to tell you what I know filled in with some opinions.

The foredeck of your Amel was not designed to take vertical loads. The genoa is connected to a very strong stay. Take a look and you will see that none of the genoa load is applied to the deck. Some people add an inner forestay by using the bulkhead separating the two forward deck compartments. This is also NOT designed to take vertical loads. The people who make this mistake fall into 2 categories:
  1. 80-90% - Worked fine with no issues. These people either never had very strong sea conditions to cause an issue, or they have problems they have not yet noticed.
  2. 10-20% Serious damage has occurred.
My guess is there is a 10-20% chance that serious damage will occur if you do not do this right and encounter strong sea conditions. This is the reason I would advise against this, but also the reason that 80-90% of the people will tell you "no problems, do it."

My advice is to look closely at the genoa chainplate on your Maramu from the attachment point above the deck to the attachment point on the bow. This is the correct design for vertical loads.
image.png

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 8:19 AM Thomas Wink <poedts@...> wrote:
Hi All,

I just wanted to update you all on the furling jib/ cutter configuration for my Maramu. I arrived at the Azores a few weeks ago. The trip from the Isles of Scilly to Terceira took me 10 days. It was a beautiful trip, but mostly up-wind sailing.

The first thing I did upon arrival is remove the jib and its furler. I only used it once, when beating into 30 knots, so most of the time it was in the way of the genoa.  Also, because of the forward lower stays on the main mast prevent sheeting in properly. The jib was sheeted on the rails on the side of the boat. The angle of attack upwind is thus not great. 

I'm converting the whole setup with a removable stay, because I would like to be able to hoist a storm jib as well.

Thanks again for all your thoughts and comments!
Regards
Thomas on Maramu #32

On Fri, Mar 4, 2022 at 2:40 AM Chris Paul via groups.io <chris__paul=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Here is a photo of the top of the staysail. It is attached at the same height as the upper spreader. The running backstays are attached to the inside of the upper spreader. 


On my other (smaller) cutters the staysail was particularly useful when used in conjunction with a high cut jib.  This setup worked really well from about 15kn up wind & reaching and also poled out in higher winds. Changing headsail on the run is a big task so I rarely used the high cut jib. 

Inline image

Regards, 
Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ



On Thursday, 3 March 2022, 09:02:22 pm NZDT, Thomas Wink <poedts@...> wrote:


Hi Chris,

Interesting to see your setup. I agree with your concerns.. you might try upwind performance with the stay sail. For my 46ft Maramu the performance is great above 20kts of true wind. Very smooth sailing and just a bit more angle on the tacks. My staysail is a 95% jib, so pretty small, and easy to handle. You might want to try it out first to see if there is any benefit..

How about the mast fittings? Do you have any pictures on that?

Best regards,
Thomas

On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 4:54 AM Chris Paul via groups.io <chris__paul=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Thomas,


See Attached word document for my inner forestay set up.        

Hope this helps you Thomas.
Any comments, improvements, concerns whatever please reply with your thoughts.

Chris Paul 
SV GLAZIG 
SM2000 #352
Currently at Opua NZ