Inverter replacement


Mohammad Shirloo
 

Our original 2500W Mastervolt inverter died at the end of the season in 2019. We have purchased a new Mastervolt Mass Combi ultra 3500/24/100 inverter charger as a replacement. This will also act as a backup charger and be ready for future upgrades to Lithium and solar installation. For now, we will just be utilizing the inverter function to have A/C when off grid and generator not running. So, the wiring is fairly simple and the original battery and A/C wiring will be connected to the new unit.

The new unit does not have a remote switch, like the original that is installed on the generator panel in the galley. The new units have control displays that we will be adding in the future. It is possible to leave the inverter on in sleep mode that utilizes minimum power, or go into the engine room and turn unit off at the unit. 

My question is regarding the switching of the A/C going to the main panel when multiple sources of power are available. I’m assuming that the inverter A/C wiring is connected to the priority switch that selects which source of power is feeding the A/C panel Just want to be sure that if the inverter is on and either shore power or generator is supplying power, the inverter is not in the circuit and is OK to leave the unit on all the time, if we elect to do so?


ngtnewington Newington
 

Mohammad,
1.Normally inverter chargers all have sleep modes. There will be a sensitivity setting that looks for a load. Some electronics demand so little power that the big inverter can not see it. This searching will use a little power.

2. If there is an AC source applied to the inverter charger then it will automatically bypass inverter mode and become a charger and all AC demands that would otherwise be met by the inverter are now met by the AC supply.
So in practice if the generator is running or shore power, so long as the 100A charger switch is on then the outlets fed by the inverter will be fed directly by the AC source.
If however the 100A switch is off then the inverter will supply those outlets.
So with Lithium, if you are happy there is enough capacity you could just use the big inverter to supply the whole AC part of the boat simply using the inverters internal change over switch.
I know some people think that is not belt and braces enough…but …..not sure.

Nick
S/Y Amelia 
AML54-019
Patmos



On 27 Jun 2021, at 10:19, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:



Our original 2500W Mastervolt inverter died at the end of the season in 2019. We have purchased a new Mastervolt Mass Combi ultra 3500/24/100 inverter charger as a replacement. This will also act as a backup charger and be ready for future upgrades to Lithium and solar installation. For now, we will just be utilizing the inverter function to have A/C when off grid and generator not running. So, the wiring is fairly simple and the original battery and A/C wiring will be connected to the new unit.

The new unit does not have a remote switch, like the original that is installed on the generator panel in the galley. The new units have control displays that we will be adding in the future. It is possible to leave the inverter on in sleep mode that utilizes minimum power, or go into the engine room and turn unit off at the unit. 

My question is regarding the switching of the A/C going to the main panel when multiple sources of power are available. I’m assuming that the inverter A/C wiring is connected to the priority switch that selects which source of power is feeding the A/C panel Just want to be sure that if the inverter is on and either shore power or generator is supplying power, the inverter is not in the circuit and is OK to leave the unit on all the time, if we elect to do so?


Arno Luijten
 

Hi Mohammad,

We went through the same problem, the 2kW inverter died (it is actually not a 2,5 kW inverter, the continuous load is only 2kW). So we also replaced the thing with the Mass Combi Ultra.
Although it did take it a step further. I have also installed a full Masterbus network and a Mastervolt Easy Display that you can configure to have a button to switch on/off the inverter remotely. It also connects to the two existing chargers, the alternator controller, the Mastershunt and solar controller.
Next I removed the switchover logic from Amel in the engine room in the grey box next to the generator and installed a 230V/32A relay with a 24V coil. I change the setup in the 230V breaker panel a bit as well.
The switchover for the generator is embedded in the Mass Combi together with the switchover for the inverter as pointed out by Nick.
The result is I now have a fully transparent switchover between sources without the 230V appliances even noting it.
Another thing I now am capable of is converting the 60Hz shore power we have here in Saint Martin to 50Hz using the Mass Combi and the Mastervolt Chargemaster 100A simultaneously, one to do the inverting and one to keep the batteries topped up. This is where the new relay comes into play.
If you like I have drawn a new schematic on how the system is laid out.

I did not have to route new cables apart from some short pieces, I did have to change/relocate the circuit-breaker that was in the feed-line of the inverter (from 100A to 200A). I checked the cable between the breaker and the inverter and it was thick enough for the 175A that it can use, so was the cable between the breaker and the batteries. That saved a lot of effort.

Kind regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A45-121


Mohammad Shirloo
 

Thanks Arno. Very much in line with our future direction. I would appreciate any and all information and schematics you have. It would be greatly appreciated and helpful. 

Respectfully;


Mohammad Shirloo
+1-323-633-2222 Cell
+1-424-644-0908 Fax


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Arno Luijten via groups.io <arno.luijten@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 2:34:37 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inverter replacement
 
Hi Mohammad,

We went through the same problem, the 2kW inverter died (it is actually not a 2,5 kW inverter, the continuous load is only 2kW). So we also replaced the thing with the Mass Combi Ultra.
Although it did take it a step further. I have also installed a full Masterbus network and a Mastervolt Easy Display that you can configure to have a button to switch on/off the inverter remotely. It also connects to the two existing chargers, the alternator controller, the Mastershunt and solar controller.
Next I removed the switchover logic from Amel in the engine room in the grey box next to the generator and installed a 230V/32A relay with a 24V coil. I change the setup in the 230V breaker panel a bit as well.
The switchover for the generator is embedded in the Mass Combi together with the switchover for the inverter as pointed out by Nick.
The result is I now have a fully transparent switchover between sources without the 230V appliances even noting it.
Another thing I now am capable of is converting the 60Hz shore power we have here in Saint Martin to 50Hz using the Mass Combi and the Mastervolt Chargemaster 100A simultaneously, one to do the inverting and one to keep the batteries topped up. This is where the new relay comes into play.
If you like I have drawn a new schematic on how the system is laid out.

I did not have to route new cables apart from some short pieces, I did have to change/relocate the circuit-breaker that was in the feed-line of the inverter (from 100A to 200A). I checked the cable between the breaker and the inverter and it was thick enough for the 175A that it can use, so was the cable between the breaker and the batteries. That saved a lot of effort.

Kind regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A45-121


Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hi Nick;

We will currently be using the inverter/charger as an inverter only and keep the balance of systems and chargers as they are. We will not be connecting an AC source to the invert/charger, yet. I looked for the Amel schematics of the inverter/shore power/generator selector switch and found it in the original Amel schematics supplied with the Boat.

It appears that there is a selector switch between the shore power and the generator for the AC panel, except the 220V and the microwave breakers. The power for these goes through another selector switch that selects the power source from the selector output of the generator/shore power switch and the inverter. If there is power coming in from either the generator or shore power, then the inverter is disconnected.

Respectfully;


Mohammad Shirloo
+1-323-633-2222 Cell
+1-424-644-0908 Fax


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 10:32:06 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inverter replacement
 
Mohammad,
1.Normally inverter chargers all have sleep modes. There will be a sensitivity setting that looks for a load. Some electronics demand so little power that the big inverter can not see it. This searching will use a little power.

2. If there is an AC source applied to the inverter charger then it will automatically bypass inverter mode and become a charger and all AC demands that would otherwise be met by the inverter are now met by the AC supply.
So in practice if the generator is running or shore power, so long as the 100A charger switch is on then the outlets fed by the inverter will be fed directly by the AC source.
If however the 100A switch is off then the inverter will supply those outlets.
So with Lithium, if you are happy there is enough capacity you could just use the big inverter to supply the whole AC part of the boat simply using the inverters internal change over switch.
I know some people think that is not belt and braces enough…but …..not sure.

Nick
S/Y Amelia 
AML54-019
Patmos



On 27 Jun 2021, at 10:19, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:



Our original 2500W Mastervolt inverter died at the end of the season in 2019. We have purchased a new Mastervolt Mass Combi ultra 3500/24/100 inverter charger as a replacement. This will also act as a backup charger and be ready for future upgrades to Lithium and solar installation. For now, we will just be utilizing the inverter function to have A/C when off grid and generator not running. So, the wiring is fairly simple and the original battery and A/C wiring will be connected to the new unit.

The new unit does not have a remote switch, like the original that is installed on the generator panel in the galley. The new units have control displays that we will be adding in the future. It is possible to leave the inverter on in sleep mode that utilizes minimum power, or go into the engine room and turn unit off at the unit. 

My question is regarding the switching of the A/C going to the main panel when multiple sources of power are available. I’m assuming that the inverter A/C wiring is connected to the priority switch that selects which source of power is feeding the A/C panel Just want to be sure that if the inverter is on and either shore power or generator is supplying power, the inverter is not in the circuit and is OK to leave the unit on all the time, if we elect to do so?


ngtnewington Newington
 

The one thing to keep in mind is that one day you will sell the boat. The systems need to be idiot proof and understandable to a lay person….I am not saying yours is not.
It is all very well having complex energy systems, lithium batteries etc etc but most boat owners need something simple and operable.

Nick
Feeling the heat in Samos


On 27 Jun 2021, at 17:26, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:


Hi Nick;

We will currently be using the inverter/charger as an inverter only and keep the balance of systems and chargers as they are. We will not be connecting an AC source to the invert/charger, yet. I looked for the Amel schematics of the inverter/shore power/generator selector switch and found it in the original Amel schematics supplied with the Boat.

It appears that there is a selector switch between the shore power and the generator for the AC panel, except the 220V and the microwave breakers. The power for these goes through another selector switch that selects the power source from the selector output of the generator/shore power switch and the inverter. If there is power coming in from either the generator or shore power, then the inverter is disconnected.

Respectfully;


Mohammad Shirloo
+1-323-633-2222 Cell
+1-424-644-0908 Fax

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 10:32:06 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inverter replacement
 
Mohammad,
1.Normally inverter chargers all have sleep modes. There will be a sensitivity setting that looks for a load. Some electronics demand so little power that the big inverter can not see it. This searching will use a little power.

2. If there is an AC source applied to the inverter charger then it will automatically bypass inverter mode and become a charger and all AC demands that would otherwise be met by the inverter are now met by the AC supply.
So in practice if the generator is running or shore power, so long as the 100A charger switch is on then the outlets fed by the inverter will be fed directly by the AC source.
If however the 100A switch is off then the inverter will supply those outlets.
So with Lithium, if you are happy there is enough capacity you could just use the big inverter to supply the whole AC part of the boat simply using the inverters internal change over switch.
I know some people think that is not belt and braces enough…but …..not sure.

Nick
S/Y Amelia 
AML54-019
Patmos



On 27 Jun 2021, at 10:19, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:



Our original 2500W Mastervolt inverter died at the end of the season in 2019. We have purchased a new Mastervolt Mass Combi ultra 3500/24/100 inverter charger as a replacement. This will also act as a backup charger and be ready for future upgrades to Lithium and solar installation. For now, we will just be utilizing the inverter function to have A/C when off grid and generator not running. So, the wiring is fairly simple and the original battery and A/C wiring will be connected to the new unit.

The new unit does not have a remote switch, like the original that is installed on the generator panel in the galley. The new units have control displays that we will be adding in the future. It is possible to leave the inverter on in sleep mode that utilizes minimum power, or go into the engine room and turn unit off at the unit. 

My question is regarding the switching of the A/C going to the main panel when multiple sources of power are available. I’m assuming that the inverter A/C wiring is connected to the priority switch that selects which source of power is feeding the A/C panel Just want to be sure that if the inverter is on and either shore power or generator is supplying power, the inverter is not in the circuit and is OK to leave the unit on all the time, if we elect to do so?


Arno Luijten
 

Hi Mohammad,

I have altered the 230V switch panel so now all groups are supplied by the inverter. It does mean you need to think about the things you switch on simultaneously but with the original solution that was the case as well. As I replaced the A/C units with inverter units they do not suffer from huge startup currents anymore, also they use less power..
Two groups are excluded from the inverter, as you can guess, both battery chargers are exempt.
The 40A charger can be used only if there is shore or generator power. Activating the 100A charger (when connected to shore power) will cause the Mass Combi to be disconnected from the shore power and start inverting. This is effectively the 60Hz to 50Hz conversion. So now we can run the clothes-washer in Saint Martin without using the generator.

Enclosed is the Schematic Diagram of the 230V side and a picture that shows the new circuit breaker for the Combi Mass.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121



Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Nick et al. I agree with you. I was considering a move from my SM to a 54. I would never never consider one with the sort of complexity many 54 owners are installing. These are boats, not luxury condos. You don't take a condo to remote locations nor cross oceans in one. The condo will never experience the harsh marine environment attacking its electrical connections and electronic systems.

But then I am a sailor through and through, I guess there must be others out there too.

Regards

Danny

SM 299 Ocean Pearl

On 28 June 2021 at 05:54 "ngtnewington Newington via groups.io" <ngtnewington@...> wrote:

The one thing to keep in mind is that one day you will sell the boat. The systems need to be idiot proof and understandable to a lay person….I am not saying yours is not.
It is all very well having complex energy systems, lithium batteries etc etc but most boat owners need something simple and operable.

Nick
Feeling the heat in Samos

 

On 27 Jun 2021, at 17:26, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Hi Nick;

We will currently be using the inverter/charger as an inverter only and keep the balance of systems and chargers as they are. We will not be connecting an AC source to the invert/charger, yet. I looked for the Amel schematics of the inverter/shore power/generator selector switch and found it in the original Amel schematics supplied with the Boat.

It appears that there is a selector switch between the shore power and the generator for the AC panel, except the 220V and the microwave breakers. The power for these goes through another selector switch that selects the power source from the selector output of the generator/shore power switch and the inverter. If there is power coming in from either the generator or shore power, then the inverter is disconnected.

Respectfully;


Mohammad Shirloo
+1-323-633-2222 Cell
+1-424-644-0908 Fax

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 10:32:06 AM
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inverter replacement
 
Mohammad,
1.Normally inverter chargers all have sleep modes. There will be a sensitivity setting that looks for a load. Some electronics demand so little power that the big inverter can not see it. This searching will use a little power.

2. If there is an AC source applied to the inverter charger then it will automatically bypass inverter mode and become a charger and all AC demands that would otherwise be met by the inverter are now met by the AC supply.
So in practice if the generator is running or shore power, so long as the 100A charger switch is on then the outlets fed by the inverter will be fed directly by the AC source.
If however the 100A switch is off then the inverter will supply those outlets.
So with Lithium, if you are happy there is enough capacity you could just use the big inverter to supply the whole AC part of the boat simply using the inverters internal change over switch.
I know some people think that is not belt and braces enough…but …..not sure.

Nick
S/Y Amelia 
AML54-019
Patmos


 

On 27 Jun 2021, at 10:19, Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:

Our original 2500W Mastervolt inverter died at the end of the season in 2019. We have purchased a new Mastervolt Mass Combi ultra 3500/24/100 inverter charger as a replacement. This will also act as a backup charger and be ready for future upgrades to Lithium and solar installation. For now, we will just be utilizing the inverter function to have A/C when off grid and generator not running. So, the wiring is fairly simple and the original battery and A/C wiring will be connected to the new unit.

The new unit does not have a remote switch, like the original that is installed on the generator panel in the galley. The new units have control displays that we will be adding in the future. It is possible to leave the inverter on in sleep mode that utilizes minimum power, or go into the engine room and turn unit off at the unit. 

My question is regarding the switching of the A/C going to the main panel when multiple sources of power are available. I’m assuming that the inverter A/C wiring is connected to the priority switch that selects which source of power is feeding the A/C panel Just want to be sure that if the inverter is on and either shore power or generator is supplying power, the inverter is not in the circuit and is OK to leave the unit on all the time, if we elect to do so?


 


 


Arno Luijten
 

On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 04:33 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS wrote:

Hi Nick et al. I agree with you. I was considering a move from my SM to a 54. I would never never consider one with the sort of complexity many 54 owners are installing. These are boats, not luxury condos. You don't take a condo to remote locations nor cross oceans in one. The condo will never experience the harsh marine environment attacking its electrical connections and electronic systems.

But then I am a sailor through and through, I guess there must be others out there too.

Regards

Danny

 

Hi Danny,

I’m not sure if I agree with you on this. The SM and A54 are very similar in complexity of the electrics when they left the Amel Yard.

There are plenty of SM owners that also add a lot of complexity to their boat.
I did not add complexity just for the fun of it. I did it because adding functionality or replacing broken functionality adds complexity most of the times. A good example where this is not true is when you change form NMEA0183 to NEMA2000. This actually makes things more easy as you need less cable to connect stuff. 
Adding Solar and/or Lithium will add complexity. Having more systems also brings in more need for supervising/monitoring equipment to spot upcoming problems.
My goal with our A54 is to keep systems as simple as possible but the reality is the A54 is a highly technical vessel with lots of toys.

My biggest beef with the electrics is that Amel changed several things during production (newer devices came to market) but never updated the user manual or the quite limited circuit-diagrams that are part of the documentation. So I had to reverse engineer several things to understand their workings.
Typically when I change things I make a circuit diagram of the new situation. That helps me as well if I need to look into a system later.

Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121 


Mohammad Shirloo
 

Thank you.

Respectfully;


Mohammad Shirloo
+1-323-633-2222 Cell
+1-424-644-0908 Fax


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Arno Luijten via groups.io <arno.luijten@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 9:30:57 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inverter replacement
 
Hi Mohammad,

I have altered the 230V switch panel so now all groups are supplied by the inverter. It does mean you need to think about the things you switch on simultaneously but with the original solution that was the case as well. As I replaced the A/C units with inverter units they do not suffer from huge startup currents anymore, also they use less power..
Two groups are excluded from the inverter, as you can guess, both battery chargers are exempt.
The 40A charger can be used only if there is shore or generator power. Activating the 100A charger (when connected to shore power) will cause the Mass Combi to be disconnected from the shore power and start inverting. This is effectively the 60Hz to 50Hz conversion. So now we can run the clothes-washer in Saint Martin without using the generator.

Enclosed is the Schematic Diagram of the 230V side and a picture that shows the new circuit breaker for the Combi Mass.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121



 

Arno,

Your photo also gives all 54 owners a great view of the Secondary Saltwater Manifold that you helped design.

More info here:
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Sun, Jun 27, 2021 at 5:51 PM Mohammad Shirloo <mshirloo@...> wrote:
Thank you.

Respectfully;


Mohammad Shirloo
+1-323-633-2222 Cell
+1-424-644-0908 Fax

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Arno Luijten via groups.io <arno.luijten=gmail.com@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 9:30:57 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Inverter replacement
 
Hi Mohammad,

I have altered the 230V switch panel so now all groups are supplied by the inverter. It does mean you need to think about the things you switch on simultaneously but with the original solution that was the case as well. As I replaced the A/C units with inverter units they do not suffer from huge startup currents anymore, also they use less power..
Two groups are excluded from the inverter, as you can guess, both battery chargers are exempt.
The 40A charger can be used only if there is shore or generator power. Activating the 100A charger (when connected to shore power) will cause the Mass Combi to be disconnected from the shore power and start inverting. This is effectively the 60Hz to 50Hz conversion. So now we can run the clothes-washer in Saint Martin without using the generator.

Enclosed is the Schematic Diagram of the 230V side and a picture that shows the new circuit breaker for the Combi Mass.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121