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laixoi@me.com

Nicolas Klene
 

Hello everybody

I am not able  to start the generator , not even a cough !
starting the engine is easy , then With the engine running the generator can start ! ? 

my engine battery is only one year old but hasn’t been very much used , and after testing is appearing weak .
Is there a generator only battery hidden somewhere or I just  have a weak battery ? If anybody has a good solution for keeping this engine battery charged using solar energy please feel free to enlight me !
as usual thank you in advance 
Nicolas
--
Nicolas Klene
DarNico
SM2K # 471
In Marseille
Courtney Gorman
 

Hi the same battery that starts the engine starts the generator so once you start the engine it starts charging the battery and brings the charge up. Because the length of wiring from the battery to the engine is shorter actually much shorter than the wiring from the battery to the generator you were able to start the engine with a less of a full charge but not able to start your generator. That is why you were able to start your generator with the engine running. Yes you do need a good battery by a good deep cycle lead battery for this. Cheers. 
Courtney 
svTrippin


On May 26, 2022, at 8:36 PM, Nicolas Klene via groups.io <laixoi@...> wrote:



Hello everybody

I am not able  to start the generator , not even a cough !
starting the engine is easy , then With the engine running the generator can start ! ? 

my engine battery is only one year old but hasn’t been very much used , and after testing is appearing weak .
Is there a generator only battery hidden somewhere or I just  have a weak battery ? If anybody has a good solution for keeping this engine battery charged using solar energy please feel free to enlight me !
as usual thank you in advance 
Nicolas
--
Nicolas Klene
DarNico
SM2K # 471
In Marseille
David Dickman
 

Hi everyone,
   I confirm what Nicolas has stated.  Recently happened to me in Martinique.  Less amps needed to start the engine (D3) than the Onan on the A54.  Once the staring 12V battery is charged, the Onan will start on it's own.  

Best,
    David
    Galini
    A54-100

On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 2:13 PM Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi the same battery that starts the engine starts the generator so once you start the engine it starts charging the battery and brings the charge up. Because the length of wiring from the battery to the engine is shorter actually much shorter than the wiring from the battery to the generator you were able to start the engine with a less of a full charge but not able to start your generator. That is why you were able to start your generator with the engine running. Yes you do need a good battery by a good deep cycle lead battery for this. Cheers. 
Courtney 
svTrippin


On May 26, 2022, at 8:36 PM, Nicolas Klene via groups.io <laixoi=me.com@groups.io> wrote:



Hello everybody

I am not able  to start the generator , not even a cough !
starting the engine is easy , then With the engine running the generator can start ! ? 

my engine battery is only one year old but hasn’t been very much used , and after testing is appearing weak .
Is there a generator only battery hidden somewhere or I just  have a weak battery ? If anybody has a good solution for keeping this engine battery charged using solar energy please feel free to enlight me !
as usual thank you in advance 
Nicolas
--
Nicolas Klene
DarNico
SM2K # 471
In Marseille
CW Bill Rouse
 

Nick,

The Onan requires much more power to start than your main engine.

You may have a weak battery, but...

Check all of the wire connections circled in green. CorrosionX on the connections will help. This is a photo of the backside of the generator and is the Negative Start Solenoid:
image.png


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 3:07 PM David Dickman <jdd91656@...> wrote:
Hi everyone,
   I confirm what Nicolas has stated.  Recently happened to me in Martinique.  Less amps needed to start the engine (D3) than the Onan on the A54.  Once the staring 12V battery is charged, the Onan will start on it's own.  

Best,
    David
    Galini
    A54-100

On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 2:13 PM Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi the same battery that starts the engine starts the generator so once you start the engine it starts charging the battery and brings the charge up. Because the length of wiring from the battery to the engine is shorter actually much shorter than the wiring from the battery to the generator you were able to start the engine with a less of a full charge but not able to start your generator. That is why you were able to start your generator with the engine running. Yes you do need a good battery by a good deep cycle lead battery for this. Cheers. 
Courtney 
svTrippin


On May 26, 2022, at 8:36 PM, Nicolas Klene via groups.io <laixoi=me.com@groups.io> wrote:



Hello everybody

I am not able  to start the generator , not even a cough !
starting the engine is easy , then With the engine running the generator can start ! ? 

my engine battery is only one year old but hasn’t been very much used , and after testing is appearing weak .
Is there a generator only battery hidden somewhere or I just  have a weak battery ? If anybody has a good solution for keeping this engine battery charged using solar energy please feel free to enlight me !
as usual thank you in advance 
Nicolas
--
Nicolas Klene
DarNico
SM2K # 471
In Marseille
Teun BAAS
 

Good Morning,

 

Further to Bill’s message below: I have experienced this at least twice in VANUATU in a period of 4 or 5 months. Yes it is true that a weak starter battery can be the problem but even when the battery is in good shape I still had a problem (on the A54) that the ONAN didn’t want to start. Originally it would turn over but not strong enough to start and I had to run the main engine for 2 or 5 minutes and then the ONAN would start w/o a problem. After several days this didn’t work anymore and the marine mechanic told me the negative solenoid was bad and when he bypassed the negative solenoid the ONAN started fine. I refused that solution but there was no solenoid on VANUATU so I got one from NEW CALEDONIA. After 5 months (October 2019) the same problem; same (French) marine electrician determined again the solenoid to be the problem and since no other solution he bypassed the negative solenoid and everything worked fine. I left the boat middle December 2019 in COOMERA QLD AUSTRALIA and totally forgot about it until an AMEL owning friend checked out the engine room and we discussed the matter. Bill ROUSE made very clear that the NEGATIVE solenoid should not be by-passed so Brian installed a new NEGATIVE solenoid and everything is working fine.

 

Best Regards Teun

SV AMELIT  A54  #128

 

HOPE ISLAND MARINA (near BRISBANE) QLD AUSTRALIA

May 27, 2022 07:54:34

 

You can follow AMELIT via this link: https://forecast.predictwind.com/tracking/display/AMELIT

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of CW Bill Rouse via groups.io
Sent: Friday, May 27, 2022 07:11
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Notification <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] laixoi@...

 

Nick,

 

The Onan requires much more power to start than your main engine.

 

You may have a weak battery, but...

 

Check all of the wire connections circled in green. CorrosionX on the connections will help. This is a photo of the backside of the generator and is the Negative Start Solenoid:

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 

   

 

On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 3:07 PM David Dickman <jdd91656@...> wrote:

Hi everyone,

   I confirm what Nicolas has stated.  Recently happened to me in Martinique.  Less amps needed to start the engine (D3) than the Onan on the A54.  Once the staring 12V battery is charged, the Onan will start on it's own.  

 

Best,

    David

    Galini

    A54-100

 

On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 2:13 PM Courtney Gorman via groups.io <Itsfun1=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi the same battery that starts the engine starts the generator so once you start the engine it starts charging the battery and brings the charge up. Because the length of wiring from the battery to the engine is shorter actually much shorter than the wiring from the battery to the generator you were able to start the engine with a less of a full charge but not able to start your generator. That is why you were able to start your generator with the engine running. Yes you do need a good battery by a good deep cycle lead battery for this. Cheers. 

Courtney 

svTrippin



On May 26, 2022, at 8:36 PM, Nicolas Klene via groups.io <laixoi=me.com@groups.io> wrote:



Hello everybody

I am not able  to start the generator , not even a cough !
starting the engine is easy , then With the engine running the generator can start ! ? 

my engine battery is only one year old but hasn’t been very much used , and after testing is appearing weak .
Is there a generator only battery hidden somewhere or I just  have a weak battery ? If anybody has a good solution for keeping this engine battery charged using solar energy please feel free to enlight me !
as usual thank you in advance 
Nicolas
--
Nicolas Klene
DarNico
SM2K # 471
In Marseille
Craig Briggs
 

Hi Bill,
Very interesting that the Onan requires much more power to start than the main engine. The Onan diesel engine is, what?, maybe 15-18hp, versus the propulsion engine of, what? 80-ish hp (or more). Seems a bit counterintuitive but maybe there's a reason like the Onan needing a lot of power for preheating the glow plugs (I never need preheat on my propulsion engine but always need 10 seconds-ish on the generator). I'm quite curious about the reason - can you elaborate, please?
--
Craig Briggs - s/v Sangaris / SN68  Tropic Isle Harbor, FL
Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Greetings all,

The Onan is more difficult to start because it’s cable run is considerably longer and it’s compression ratio is much higher than that of the main engine.

Physics pure and simple  :-)


Jean-Pierre Germain, formerly Eleuthera, SM 007.




On 26 May 2022, at 21:59, Craig Briggs <sangaris68@...> wrote:

Hi Bill,
Very interesting that the Onan requires much more power to start than the main engine. The Onan diesel engine is, what?, maybe 15-18hp, versus the propulsion engine of, what? 80-ish hp (or more). Seems a bit counterintuitive but maybe there's a reason like the Onan needing a lot of power for preheating the glow plugs (I never need preheat on my propulsion engine but always need 10 seconds-ish on the generator). I'm quite curious about the reason - can you elaborate, please?
--
Craig Briggs - s/v Sangaris / SN68  Tropic Isle Harbor, FL

Jean Boucharlat
 

You might add that, as you try to start the generator engine, you are also turning the generating equipment which has great inertia and is heavier than the engine itself and, to top it off, it is already trying to generate electricity adding to the resistance.

 

Jean Boucharlat

Formerly SM 232

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of Germain Jean-Pierre
Sent: vendredi 27 mai 2022 08:41
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] laixoi@...

 

Greetings all,

 

The Onan is more difficult to start because it’s cable run is considerably longer and it’s compression ratio is much higher than that of the main engine.

 

Physics pure and simple  :-)

 

 

Jean-Pierre Germain, formerly Eleuthera, SM 007.

 

 

 



On 26 May 2022, at 21:59, Craig Briggs <sangaris68@...> wrote:

 

Hi Bill,
Very interesting that the Onan requires much more power to start than the main engine. The Onan diesel engine is, what?, maybe 15-18hp, versus the propulsion engine of, what? 80-ish hp (or more). Seems a bit counterintuitive but maybe there's a reason like the Onan needing a lot of power for preheating the glow plugs (I never need preheat on my propulsion engine but always need 10 seconds-ish on the generator). I'm quite curious about the reason - can you elaborate, please?
--
Craig Briggs - s/v Sangaris / SN68  Tropic Isle Harbor, FL

 
Vladan SV PAME
 

Hello Nicolas,

I have solution on my boat to use solar panels to charge engine starter battery and generator starter battery as I have separate starter batteries on my boat since I bought it. Don't know is that setup was coming from Amel or previous owner made that change. 

Solution is Mastervolt Mass Combi Ultra. As part of my lithium upgrade I installed two of them.  https://www.mastervolt.com/products/mass-combi-ultra/mass-combi-ultra-24-3500-100-230-v/

Mastervolt Mass Combi Ultra have integrated solar charger ( limited capacity but enough for 500w solar panels ), and also have integrated secondary charger that is 12V. I connected each starter battery to separate Ultra and when ever incoming current comes to Ultra's from any source ( shore, generator or solar ) if your secondary charger is on it will charge start battery as well.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards, 
--
Vladan

A54 #157
SV PAME
Arno Luijten
 

Next to all other tips you may want to look at the voltage drop on the main battery switches. I found they can build op considerable voltage drop if you do not exercise them regularly. On the 12 volt side this can quickly lead to problems. 
The Volvo has a compression ratio of 17.3:1 and the Onan 23:1 so yes there is a substantial difference. However the starter motor on the VP is 2.2 kW and the Onan is 1.2 kW.
I think the glow plug may contribute more to the problem and I’m guessing the starting RPM of the VP is higher as well.

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121
Currently at Horta, Azores.
CW Bill Rouse
 

Craig,

There are several reasons the Onan from about the model year 2000 needs more power (some are facts, others are opinions):
  • The length of the cable from the start battery is at least twice as long, but the wire diameter is smaller
  • Glow Plugs
  • Onan uses an ordinary solenoid which is not as good as the Valeo Amel uses. (and there is no push-button by-pass)
  • The wire diameter from the connection buss on the side of the Onan to the Negative solenoid is too small
  • The negative solenoid is out of site and its terminal connects get corroded without you noticing.
  • It's a boat
From my Amel Book SupplementS

 Onan No Start or Hard Start Issue & Troubleshoo...


Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 8:59 PM Craig Briggs <sangaris68@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,
Very interesting that the Onan requires much more power to start than the main engine. The Onan diesel engine is, what?, maybe 15-18hp, versus the propulsion engine of, what? 80-ish hp (or more). Seems a bit counterintuitive but maybe there's a reason like the Onan needing a lot of power for preheating the glow plugs (I never need preheat on my propulsion engine but always need 10 seconds-ish on the generator). I'm quite curious about the reason - can you elaborate, please?
--
Craig Briggs - s/v Sangaris / SN68  Tropic Isle Harbor, FL

David Dickman
 

Hi all, 
Recently had similar experience. Volvo penta tech in Martinique (Ludovic at Ids) tells me it is because Oman has glow plugs that draw a lot of current. D3 engine being common rail does not need as much. This, engine will start with less battery charge than Onan.

Best david
Galini
A54 100

On Thu, May 26, 2022 at 8:59 PM Craig Briggs <sangaris68@...> wrote:
Hi Bill,
Very interesting that the Onan requires much more power to start than the main engine. The Onan diesel engine is, what?, maybe 15-18hp, versus the propulsion engine of, what? 80-ish hp (or more). Seems a bit counterintuitive but maybe there's a reason like the Onan needing a lot of power for preheating the glow plugs (I never need preheat on my propulsion engine but always need 10 seconds-ish on the generator). I'm quite curious about the reason - can you elaborate, please?
--
Craig Briggs - s/v Sangaris / SN68  Tropic Isle Harbor, FL

scentstone
 

May I add my 2 cents about a shared experience and possible solution…
- starting in South Africa during my first RTW, the 7MDKAV began to have irregular starting fails (nearly as described above (sometime accepting only from the genset start panel and not the remote, sometimes best when the engine was running, etc… never completely stuck but very annoying when sailing single handed… 
- I then started all investigation, very well supported by the Bill's knowledge and I strongly encourage everyone to subscribe to one of his package before starting a serious navigation. So all the above was checked carefully, with not much definitive succes… 
- the I started at controlling and changing the solenoid… when changed the older was controlled perfectly fine…
- then, I was back in La Rochelle and able to work on this with my best friend Fred who is highly skilled at marine electricity and an Amel expert. After a meticulous complete check of the whole system he told me "Fred, I'm sorry but I can't find any issue there and I would say that it could be the PCB (electronic board) even if I can't be certain and despite the fact that it's an expensive part.
- I started at searching how to by one from Onan, Cummins, their subsidiary in France and also in South Africa ;-) > NO way to get one and I don't know if the shortage is now fixed.
- I finally was lucky enough to find one on a mechanic's shelves and changed it.

- and guess what ? It's now working since one year absolutely as it should, starting first press on the remote etc…

So, if somebody can find a PCD… try to change it, it'll perhaps give you some years of peace ;-) In the end as Bill wrote : 

  • everything can get corroded without you noticing.
  • It's a boat

Kind regards
Fred, S/V Scentstone SM2K #375
currently sailing the magic Scotland

Just in case ; PCB Assemble Ref 0327-1533 for installation on 7MDKAV-2317
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