Lithium Battery BMS


Juan de Zulueta
 

I am planning to replace my 400 ah 24v gel batteries with Lithium batteries.
My charging devices are :
Alternator Mastervolt 24v 75 ah
Mass combi Mastervolt 24 v 60 ah , 220v 2600 w
MPPT victron with 1500 watt of solar panels

Mastervolt  lithium batteries are extremely expensive.
since my boat is in the Caribbean I was looking into American providers like Battle Born batteries or equivalent.

I have concerns regarding the overall security of the installation.

Mastervolt and Victron batteries BMS  send a message to the charging devices before security shut down to stop charge.

i did not find the same capability with batteries have an internal BMS like Chinese or US lithium batteries.

What is the risk  for the charging device (charger, alternator, MPPT solar) if the battery is suddenly disconnected by the BMS during the charging process. . I know Sv Delos is using Battle Born batteries, do you what type of solution they have implemented?

if there a solution to interface a Battery BMS with Masterbus to send the message “ stop charge” to the Mastervolt charging devices?

best regards.


--
Juan de Zulueta
OPHELIE X
Super Maramu #32


Paul Osterberg
 

Juan 
I bought 16 cells from RJ in China in total 540 Ah 24 volt (2700 USD free delivery, Portugal), opted for a high quality BMS MasterLi including high quality Contactors ( 750 A continius load) Cost for BMS contactors Busbars fuses etc close to 2000 USD. The BMS workshop with a AUX lead acid battery, taking  the charge from what ever you  charging your Li pack with when the charge relay open, so no risk for regulators it always work towards a load. I use my Victron MultiPlus who is controlled directly by the BMS, My old original Dolphins charger also works without problems, of course Solar MPPT works great as well. For the Alternator I used my previous installed Balmar external regulator works good. The BMS cut the field line a few seconds before the charge relay opens, that to protect the Alternator. The good thing is if the BMS or Li pack malfunction I can still run communication and navigation from my AUX battery. Have had the system now for 6 month, very pleased so far. But part of my satisfaction is due to 1,4 kW of solar power. Do all the cocking on induction. Run the calorifier from the inverter.
Paul on SY Kerpa SM#259


Juan de Zulueta
 

Paul,

this is indeed an interesting solution quite interesting in terms of price and functionality.
how many ah of standard battery did you keep?
i am still interested to hear from other implementations of lithium batteries offering a real security.

bestbregards.
--
Juan de Zulueta
OPHELIE X
Super Maramu #32


Paul Osterberg
 

I only made space for 2x70 Ah batteries, 
But depending on how much other stuff you put in the battery compartment you may have space for more. In the picture you see the starter battery and the 2x70 Ah batteries. 
Paul


Dominique Sery
 

Bonjour Juan,
My lead batteries need to be changed, I switched to lithium.  I took everything in Victron (cheaper than Mastervolt) and available in stores in France, although the price is still very high.  So 6 x 12.8 v 200 Ah, exactly the same capacity I had in lead.  (half in size) + Skylla 100A charger + 24V 3000 VA inverter + Ve-bms + Battery protect (65A for the 24 v alternator and 200A for the load) + BMV 712 + alarm.Everything is in bluetooth and is controlled with the  Victron-connect application.  In use, it is day and night with the previous equipment.  Why Victron?  Because the size of their batteries fit the battery compartment perfectly and I wanted everything in the same brand.  It works great, according to specs, fast charging, higher load.  No regrets (yet).
 Cordialement
Dominique
A54


Paul Harries
 

Please help my understanding.
As the boat is 24v why buy 12 v or 6v batteries? My understanding is 12v or 6v would have to be connected in series to give 24 v. Again from what I understand most bms just manage individual batteries as opposed to monitoring batteries as an integrated series. As a result problems could occur if series batteries not balanced. Please educate me on this issue
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Juan de Zulueta
 

Bonjour Dominique,

I am very interested by your solution.
I looked into the victron batteries they are indeed much cheaper than the Mastervolt but if I understand the battery protect can be used for lithium batteries to stop the load from the alternator or the charger. This solution would work with my Mastervolt alternator and my Mastervolt charger if I understand since I don t think I can interface VE bus with Masterbus.
Do I need one battery protect for each charging device not supporting ve bus or one for the alternator and one for the charger?


Cordialement.



Juan de Zulueta
+33680895892
sent from my Ipad.

Le 12 sept. 2021 à 17:47, Dominique Sery via groups.io <dominiquesery@...> a écrit :

Bonjour Juan,
My lead batteries need to be changed, I switched to lithium.  I took everything in Victron (cheaper than Mastervolt) and available in stores in France, although the price is still very high.  So 6 x 12.8 v 200 Ah, exactly the same capacity I had in lead.  (half in size) + Skylla 100A charger + 24V 3000 VA inverter + Ve-bms + Battery protect (65A for the 24 v alternator and 200A for the load) + BMV 712 + alarm.Everything is in bluetooth and is controlled with the  Victron-connect application.  In use, it is day and night with the previous equipment.  Why Victron?  Because the size of their batteries fit the battery compartment perfectly and I wanted everything in the same brand.  It works great, according to specs, fast charging, higher load.  No regrets (yet).
 Cordialement
Dominique
A54

--
Juan de Zulueta
OPHELIE X
Super Maramu #32


Dominique Sery
 

Paul, why choose 12 volt batteries for a 24 volt circuit?  2 main reasons for Victron models (the same problem with Mastervolt batteries): 24 volt batteries do not fit in the battery compartment when standing, they must be laid on their side which is not recommended and  in this case we can only put 2 of 200Ah which is lower than the original capacity, on the other hand the higher weight complicates handling.
Dominique
Irko A54 #16 Kilada Greece


Dominique Sery
 

Bonjour Juan,
it’s easy to control the Mastervolt alternator with external Alpha pro regulator using a Victron Battery-protect (the smallest), in position 7 it is used as a control relay by the Victron Ve-bms.  The consumption is 1.5 mA completely compatible with the maximum authorized current of 10 mA of the Ve-bms.  A second, ordinary relay, powered by the ignition key, will only activate it when the engine is running (+ a manual switch for security).  The bluetooth version of this Battery Protect allows you to control the charge with a smartphone (stop and start).  When I sail with the engine, as soon as the voltage of the batteries reaches 27.6 v (95-98% of charge) I stop the alternator with the smartphone so as not to keep the batteries at a high voltage for too long (the duration of  absorption of 28.5 v is 4 h with the Alpha pro).  For the other loads, if they are Victrons they can be managed by the Ve-bms otherwise either they have a remote control and another small BP will be used or there is none and a Battery protect of suitable power can be put  on the charging cables.  Note that the Ve-bms has a maximum control of 10 mA for the charge and 2 amps for the load (+ 50 mA for the pre-discharge alarm).  A bluetooth BMV with audible alarm informs as soon as the voltage is high or low (adjustable). The smartphone will check each battery cell and you can stop the charge or the load if necessary.
For the battery charger, if you are in the boat, you can drive it yourself with the  bmv and stop it as soon as the charge is finished.
Cordialement
Dominique
Irko A54#16


Juan de Zulueta
 

Dominique,

this is excactly the solution I was looking for.
I hope I can get those equipments shipped in Saint Martin in the Caribbean 

Cordialement 


Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 13 sept. 2021 à 07:50, Dominique Sery via groups.io <dominiquesery@...> a écrit :

Bonjour Juan,
it’s easy to control the Mastervolt alternator with external Alpha pro regulator using a Victron Battery-protect (the smallest), in position 7 it is used as a control relay by the Victron Ve-bms.  The consumption is 1.5 mA completely compatible with the maximum authorized current of 10 mA of the Ve-bms.  A second, ordinary relay, powered by the ignition key, will only activate it when the engine is running (+ a manual switch for security).  The bluetooth version of this Battery Protect allows you to control the charge with a smartphone (stop and start).  When I sail with the engine, as soon as the voltage of the batteries reaches 27.6 v (95-98% of charge) I stop the alternator with the smartphone so as not to keep the batteries at a high voltage for too long (the duration of  absorption of 28.5 v is 4 h with the Alpha pro).  For the other loads, if they are Victrons they can be managed by the Ve-bms otherwise either they have a remote control and another small BP will be used or there is none and a Battery protect of suitable power can be put  on the charging cables.  Note that the Ve-bms has a maximum control of 10 mA for the charge and 2 amps for the load (+ 50 mA for the pre-discharge alarm).  A bluetooth BMV with audible alarm informs as soon as the voltage is high or low (adjustable). The smartphone will check each battery cell and you can stop the charge or the load if necessary.
For the battery charger, if you are in the boat, you can drive it yourself with the  bmv and stop it as soon as the charge is finished.
Cordialement
Dominique
Irko A54#16

--
Juan de Zulueta
OPHELIE X
Super Maramu #32


Paul Harries
 

Thx


On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 0:56, Dominique Sery via groups.io
<dominiquesery@...> wrote:
Paul, why choose 12 volt batteries for a 24 volt circuit?  2 main reasons for Victron models (the same problem with Mastervolt batteries): 24 volt batteries do not fit in the battery compartment when standing, they must be laid on their side which is not recommended and  in this case we can only put 2 of 200Ah which is lower than the original capacity, on the other hand the higher weight complicates handling.
Dominique
Irko A54 #16 Kilada Greece

--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Scott SV Tengah
 

Paul: Third reason -  if my starter battery dies, I can easily substitute one of my lithium batteries to start the 12v motor. 

Dominique: How did you wire the BP-200? Were you able to find a wire that passes through JUST the low current 24v control circuits? I tried to use the BP-200 but the original installer just put the entire 24v load through the BP-200. One second of hydraulic passerelle use and the BP-200 melted.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Dan Carlson
 

It's been a while since I gave a shout out for the WakeSpeed Ws500 alternator controller. I am very pleased with it. 

On of my favorite features with the standard LiFePO charge setting it a simple on/off switch at the helm. ON - enables the standard LiFePO charge setting of 27.5bulk, 26.72 float. OFF - just regulates the alternator to maintain the 26.72v float. I leave it off as a default as I like to be paying attention when I am fully charging my batteries, as well as moderating my alternator load on the engine when maneuvering around a marina, etc

Best regards, Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, SM#387


On Mon, Sep 13, 2021, 1:50 AM Dominique Sery via groups.io <dominiquesery=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
Bonjour Juan,
it’s easy to control the Mastervolt alternator with external Alpha pro regulator using a Victron Battery-protect (the smallest), in position 7 it is used as a control relay by the Victron Ve-bms.  The consumption is 1.5 mA completely compatible with the maximum authorized current of 10 mA of the Ve-bms.  A second, ordinary relay, powered by the ignition key, will only activate it when the engine is running (+ a manual switch for security).  The bluetooth version of this Battery Protect allows you to control the charge with a smartphone (stop and start).  When I sail with the engine, as soon as the voltage of the batteries reaches 27.6 v (95-98% of charge) I stop the alternator with the smartphone so as not to keep the batteries at a high voltage for too long (the duration of  absorption of 28.5 v is 4 h with the Alpha pro).  For the other loads, if they are Victrons they can be managed by the Ve-bms otherwise either they have a remote control and another small BP will be used or there is none and a Battery protect of suitable power can be put  on the charging cables.  Note that the Ve-bms has a maximum control of 10 mA for the charge and 2 amps for the load (+ 50 mA for the pre-discharge alarm).  A bluetooth BMV with audible alarm informs as soon as the voltage is high or low (adjustable). The smartphone will check each battery cell and you can stop the charge or the load if necessary.
For the battery charger, if you are in the boat, you can drive it yourself with the  bmv and stop it as soon as the charge is finished.
Cordialement
Dominique
Irko A54#16


rossirossix4
 

Hi Daniel,
Really liked your description of your lithium conversion.  I am beginning the process of conversion and my plan is to install the WakeSpeed 500 first.  I saw one photo you posted of your setup with the  LN 175 altenator, but do you have any closeups or walk-throughs on the wiring or wiring diagrams?  I am also curious about your wiring back to the batteries and to your on/off switch at the helm.  
Bob     KAIMI SM429


Dan Carlson
 

Hello Bob, I'm not at the boat right now. We head back to re-launch in two weeks so it will be pretty hectic until the beginning of Oct. I'll try to dig some things up when things calm down.

Daniel Carlson on sv BeBe, sm #387

On Wed, Sep 15, 2021, 3:17 PM rossirossix4 <rossidesigngroup@...> wrote:
Hi Daniel,
Really liked your description of your lithium conversion.  I am beginning the process of conversion and my plan is to install the WakeSpeed 500 first.  I saw one photo you posted of your setup with the  LN 175 altenator, but do you have any closeups or walk-throughs on the wiring or wiring diagrams?  I am also curious about your wiring back to the batteries and to your on/off switch at the helm.  
Bob     KAIMI SM429


Dominique Sery
 

Scott, sorry for the late reply.  The easiest way for Victron Battery Protect is to install it at the entrance to the 24 volt switchboard in the locker above the kitchen sink.  All circuits controlled by the 24v board will be activated (or deactivated) by the Ve-bms.  In particular the “cockpit controls”.  There remain the navigation instruments which require another BP (small model) at the chart table, to be installed on the connection panel under the hull port, which is very easy to access.  

For your passerelle i think that the control is drive by the « cockpit controls » as the bowtruster, the winchs..
The other, more difficult solution is to separate the cables at the circuit breakers in the locker next to the engine battery.  It's a little more annoying because you have to install the bus bars and redo all the connections, some wires being soldered together and you have to separate the inputs (chargers - alternator) and the outputs (high powers - low powers)
Dominique


Willem Kroes
 

Hi, Juan,

To add to the very useful suggestions you already received, this one: a very cheap and easy-to-install alternator protection device from Sterling (Alternator Protection Device – Sterling Power Products (sterling-power.com ).
I bought 4 x 100 Ah Iron phosphate batteries in 2017. Installed the Sterling device, bought an external Mastervolt Alpha Pro regulator programmed to meet the requirements of the batteries (also with a temperature sensor with a hose clamp fitted on the alternator casing, connected to the Alpha Pro. I also reprogrammed my Mastervolt charger 24 V 60 Amps.
Since this, I found myself in battery heaven instead of a battery hell.
Good luck!

Willem Kroes
SM #351 Kavanga

now in Licata on Sicily


Juan de Zulueta
 

Willem,

Thanks for the input.
What make of batteries did you buy?

Juan de Zulueta
+33680895892
sent from my Ipad.

Le 17 sept. 2021 à 14:22, Willem Kroes <kavanga@...> a écrit :

Hi, Juan,

To add to the very useful suggestions you already received, this one: a very cheap and easy-to-install alternator protection device from Sterling (Alternator Protection Device – Sterling Power Products (sterling-power.com ).
I bought 4 x 100 Ah Iron phosphate batteries in 2017. Installed the Sterling device, bought an external Mastervolt Alpha Pro regulator programmed to meet the requirements of the batteries (also with a temperature sensor with a hose clamp fitted on the alternator casing, connected to the Alpha Pro. I also reprogrammed my Mastervolt charger 24 V 60 Amps.
Since this, I found myself in battery heaven instead of a battery hell.
Good luck!

Willem Kroes
SM #351 Kavanga

now in Licata on Sicily

--
Juan de Zulueta
OPHELIE X
Super Maramu #32


Paul Harries
 

As a potential Amel buyer the complexity of some of the Li installations scares me. My question when evaluating such systems is a simple one, "could my wife handle the system on her own? As I well  recall the difficulty my wife had programming a vcr!

The limiting factor that I see at present is that companies like Victron only make their BMS available with their batteries. As a result battery prices for the likes of Victron are inflated.

The future in my opinion lies with an external BMS integrated with battery charging and power source switch over, such a system should run on it's own without the need for owner input other than programming due to system changes. Failover with integrated bms redundancy is also a consideration..

I think it is important to remember how Bill classifies boat value, with increase in complexity of electrical systems boat value drops.

In summary while I am full of admiration for those who have installed complex multi vendor diy Li systems, I would be unlikely to buy their boats.


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


ngtnewington Newington
 

Paul,

You nailed it. Keep it simple. You need to think about the next owner…he/she needs to be able to open the manual and go.

Nick
Amelia
AML 54-019

Leros Gr

On 17 Sep 2021, at 17:54, Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries@...> wrote:

As a potential Amel buyer the complexity of some of the Li installations scares me. My question when evaluating such systems is a simple one, "could my wife handle the system on her own? As I well  recall the difficulty my wife had programming a vcr!

The limiting factor that I see at present is that companies like Victron only make their BMS available with their batteries. As a result battery prices for the likes of Victron are inflated.

The future in my opinion lies with an external BMS integrated with battery charging and power source switch over, such a system should run on it's own without the need for owner input other than programming due to system changes. Failover with integrated bms redundancy is also a consideration..

I think it is important to remember how Bill classifies boat value, with increase in complexity of electrical systems boat value drops.

In summary while I am full of admiration for those who have installed complex multi vendor diy Li systems, I would be unlikely to buy their boats.


--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer