Looking for agent/surveyor in south of France (Med)


Martijn BoIt
 

Hi all,

Our search for an Amel is picking up speed. As we live in the Netherlands, and we found some Amels along the most southern Mediterranean coast of France, we're looking for a good agent + surveyor in that area, who can assist us with the purchase, paperwork, survey, etc, preferably someone familiar with Amel boats but not necessary.

We were also wondering how you can trust the broker or the agent once you send over the money (via an escrow).

Thanks and kind regards, Martijn 


 

If you want the very best in the world:
Olivier BEAUTE / ATLANTIC YACHT SURVEY 
32 avenue des Corsaires
17000 LA ROCHELLE
Tel: +33 546 522 147 Mob: +33 674 028 243
olivierbeaute@...
http://atlanticyachtsurvey.com


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   


On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 12:08 PM Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:

Hi all,

Our search for an Amel is picking up speed. As we live in the Netherlands, and we found some Amels along the most southern Mediterranean coast of France, we're looking for a good agent + surveyor in that area, who can assist us with the purchase, paperwork, survey, etc, preferably someone familiar with Amel boats but not necessary.

We were also wondering how you can trust the broker or the agent once you send over the money (via an escrow).

Thanks and kind regards, Martijn 


david bruce
 

Hi Mattijn,  

We purchased our Santorin in S France while in the US with the assistance of Jerome Fragnon  in Antibes,  very excellent and trustworthy broker.  He speaks English quite well and although not an Amel specialist is familiar w them.  
Michel Charpentier who is semi retired is the only Amel specific broker I know of but personally I would use Jerome, but either ok and do get Olivier Beaute to do the survey if at all possible.  

Good luck.  

Dave Bruce
Liesse
SN 006


On Jul 13, 2022, at 8:08 PM, Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:



Hi all,

Our search for an Amel is picking up speed. As we live in the Netherlands, and we found some Amels along the most southern Mediterranean coast of France, we're looking for a good agent + surveyor in that area, who can assist us with the purchase, paperwork, survey, etc, preferably someone familiar with Amel boats but not necessary.

We were also wondering how you can trust the broker or the agent once you send over the money (via an escrow).

Thanks and kind regards, Martijn 


Rachael
 

We second Bill’s recommendation, Oliver worked for Amel, lives in France  and is now a surveyor specialising in Amels. You will learn a lot about the Amel philosophy from him as well as the workings and functions and dysfunctions of the yacht you’re looking at.

We can’t recommend him enough for peace of mind. 
--
Rachael & Robin Courtenay
SM232 bought in Portugal Mar22
now in Leros, Greece


Martijn BoIt
 

Thanks everybody for all the (private) answers! I really appreciate the help.

 

It does not make it easier though. I received quite some conflicting information. I conclude it is important to have a good surveyor but you can never be sure about anything or count on it to really help out.

I got different messages explaining that some rather new, very well maintained and quite expensive boats ended up requiring very huge refits, while at the same time cheap boats often turn out expensive in the end. So I assume you can't really tell what you're going to end up with until you do it.

Regarding the surveyor; I've read a lot of reviews online and now know even the very best (and more expensive) in the world, Olivier, gets very good and very, very bad reviews, leaving people with huge amounts of unexpected costs and trouble.

It is hard to believe. Is it really just a stroke of luck, buying a proper Amel?



Slavko Despotovic
 

I will add my experience. I owned 4 boats since 1996. All except the last one (Amel) were new. If one is on the market for 20+ years old Amel it is always a little bit of lack and personal preparation. Surveyor will help in lot of aspects, give you a list of items that needs attentions and finally will give you fair market value of the boat  one is buying. Most of Amels on the market will have original rigging, original engine, original generator and mot other systems will be original. Maybe some electronics was replaced. Engine hours will be from 2000-5000 hours, generator from 1000-3000 hours and so on, watermaker 400-?? hours.
Amel or not, it is old boat that needs attention and care. Some owners are better some are not. 
I started process in 2019, made a list a requirements, budget and made assumption how much I will have to invest. In December 2019 I had a list of 12 Amels. In January 2020 I went to see 2 Amels and in July 2020 the third one. Finally I decided for one that I own today. Olivier have done survey in July 2020.
Surveyor (Olivier) market value was higher than one that I have negotieted. I added what was to be replaced (standing and some running rigging, sales and general maintenance plus whatever Oliver found to be fixed.
List of the items was long and at the range of 25% of purchased value of Bonne Anse and pretty much whit-in what I have originally planned. Now, 2 years later I have to say that there were not major surprises or disappointment.
General statement from Olivier, broker and myself was that Bonne Anse needs some care, cleaning, updating but in general it was sound and good boat for her age and for the price I was paying.
I think that surveyor (Olivier or other) will point out to possible problem of the boat you are buying. Olivier has very good knowledge of the Amel boats so he knows what to look for and most important he will give you a list of must do and list of other items to be fixed. He is very responsive after sales and will advise on many questions you might have.
This is from my side.


--
Slavko
SM 2000
#279 Bonne Anse in Croatia


Trevor Lusty
 

Martijn,
           I totally refute that Olivier "left anyone with huge amounts of unexpected costs" it is simply not how he operates. Most of us who sail are dreamers. We must be, as logically, owning a boat for pleasure makes no sense!
End of dream, here is the reality. 
All the larger Amel models are very heavily system driven boats. Where they excel is in the ethos of keeping things  as simple and logical as possible, but in the main, the entire Amel range relies heavily on electrical 24 volt systems. Batteries and chargers are only the beginning of maintaining an Amel.
I ran an Amel Super Maramu for eight years, it cost me E 440K to purchase, the annual costs were between US 40 to 50 thousand dollars.
Bill and Judy Rouse have a speed sheet showing circa S46k annually for Bebe when in their ownership.
Lots of these boats are now well over twenty years old. Choosing the right one for you has nothing to do with luck, just proper advice and common sense.
For the first time since I can remember, I don't have a boat at the moment because I have had four high end yachts surveyed this year and none of them were the value they they initially appeared to be.
For my part, rather than thinking  of  a good surveyor as an expense, I am thankful just how much they potentially saved me.
Good luck with your search.
Trevor Lusty
Ireland


Paul Harries
 

It would be very interesting to see detailed reasons for dissatifaction. Had buyer underestimated cost of expected refit? Underestimated cost of Amel ownership or were there a significant number of unexpected major component failures.
Whatever details could help prospective buyers.
From what I have heard it is unlikely to be a problem with the perceived best Amel surveyor in the business but more as stated in previous response a matter of expectations.
As for me, I expect to have to replace sails, replace fixed and running rigging, overhaul all motors and gearboxes, likely replace ac units, replace hoses, overhaul electrical system, clean hull and paint, and likely replace electronics on any 20 year old boat I buy. Just the above will run at least US $60,000, and that's before surprises!
All prospective Amel buyers should speak to Bill, buy his book and read it, your eyes will be opened.

--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Peter Forbes
 

I used Olivier Beaute and found him exceptionally good, accurate and his advice was invaluable. A really top class surveyor.

Peter Forbes
CARANGO
Amel 54 #035
Lymington, UK.
07836 209730

On 15 Jul 2022, at 18:27, Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries@...> wrote:

It would be very interesting to see detailed reasons for dissatifaction. Had buyer underestimated cost of expected refit? Underestimated cost of Amel ownership or were there a significant number of unexpected major component failures.
Whatever details could help prospective buyers.
From what I have heard it is unlikely to be a problem with the perceived best Amel surveyor in the business but more as stated in previous response a matter of expectations.
As for me, I expect to have to replace sails, replace fixed and running rigging, overhaul all motors and gearboxes, likely replace ac units, replace hoses, overhaul electrical system, clean hull and paint, and likely replace electronics on any 20 year old boat I buy. Just the above will run at least US $60,000, and that's before surprises!
All prospective Amel buyers should speak to Bill, buy his book and read it, your eyes will be opened.

--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


 

None of us have a totally complete answer to the question posed about surveyors. Most of us lack multiple comparisons. I believe I have more experience than many have because in the last 3 years I have been hired as a Buyer's Consultant prior to purchase. Sadly Olivier was the surveyor on only about 1/4th of these. In my opinion and based on my first-hand experience, you cannot hire a better surveyor for an Amel.

Regarding expectations, I can assure you that the majority of the prospective Buyers I meet have an expectation issue, some slight, some huge. I do my best to correct this, but sometimes it is impossible.

If you are in Europe, especially France, and you choose a surveyor other than Olivier, you are making a poor decision, but how can you know unless I state it here.
Olivier BEAUTE / ATLANTIC YACHT SURVEY - Europe, Worldwide
32 avenue des Corsaires
17000 LA ROCHELLE
Tel: +33 546 522 147 Mob: +33 674 028 243

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 12:32 PM Peter Forbes <ppsforbes@...> wrote:
I used Olivier Beaute and found him exceptionally good, accurate and his advice was invaluable. A really top class surveyor.

Peter Forbes
CARANGO
Amel 54 #035
Lymington, UK.
07836 209730

On 15 Jul 2022, at 18:27, Paul Harries via groups.io <Pharries=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

It would be very interesting to see detailed reasons for dissatifaction. Had buyer underestimated cost of expected refit? Underestimated cost of Amel ownership or were there a significant number of unexpected major component failures.
Whatever details could help prospective buyers.
From what I have heard it is unlikely to be a problem with the perceived best Amel surveyor in the business but more as stated in previous response a matter of expectations.
As for me, I expect to have to replace sails, replace fixed and running rigging, overhaul all motors and gearboxes, likely replace ac units, replace hoses, overhaul electrical system, clean hull and paint, and likely replace electronics on any 20 year old boat I buy. Just the above will run at least US $60,000, and that's before surprises!
All prospective Amel buyers should speak to Bill, buy his book and read it, your eyes will be opened.

--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Hi Paul, your list of expected expenses on a 20 year old boat seems to expect that everything aboard is 20 years old. It is an ongoing process keeping all systems functioning. One very experienced cruiser once told me that when you are living aboard if you dont do three jobs a day you fall behind. I dont know whether that number is exact but I know that I never dare to think: aahh, that's everything done because that immediately invites another task to rear its head. We long term owners who regularly use their boats are continually repairing and replacing so there is no way you would be hit with the lot immediately after purchase. However if you get a boat that has had little use for 5 years or has been laid up ashore for two or three years, that is a very different beast and who knows what is lying in wait for you. My advice. Look for a boat that has been in continual use by a good owner. Good meaning one who loves and cares for his boat.
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

On 16/07/2022 05:27 Paul Harries via groups.io <pharries@...> wrote:


It would be very interesting to see detailed reasons for dissatifaction. Had buyer underestimated cost of expected refit? Underestimated cost of Amel ownership or were there a significant number of unexpected major component failures.
Whatever details could help prospective buyers.
From what I have heard it is unlikely to be a problem with the perceived best Amel surveyor in the business but more as stated in previous response a matter of expectations.
As for me, I expect to have to replace sails, replace fixed and running rigging, overhaul all motors and gearboxes, likely replace ac units, replace hoses, overhaul electrical system, clean hull and paint, and likely replace electronics on any 20 year old boat I buy. Just the above will run at least US $60,000, and that's before surprises!
All prospective Amel buyers should speak to Bill, buy his book and read it, your eyes will be opened.

--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Trevor Lusty
 

Paul,
       Danny's point is well made. My SM was three years old when I bought her. The boat was as new, cutlery still in the wrappers, dressing gowns never worn, water maker never used, engine just a few hours, generator the same.
Just to be sure, I took her to Amel in La Rochelle and told them to check her over for a transatlantic crossing. This was 2007 and that was when I met Oliver.
She was there for six months.
She had a complete check over.
I left La Rochelle with an as new boat, total peace of mind, other than, having just paid a bill for Euros 27K!
That is the reality of blue water sailing at the sharp end.
As I was  once told by a marina manager in Brazil when I questioned his quotation, 'Señor Trevor, big boat, big bill".
Glad to hear that your dream is still real.
Best regards,
Trevor Lusty
Ireland


Paul Harries
 

I think with boats it is best to budget for the worst case scenario and not just dream it will be ok.
This group is great in that true costs are often confided in private messages. I have been given considerable private advice by several members, their candid advice is very much appreciated. Bill has also given me anonomised examples of costs incurred after purchacing a 10- 20 year old Amel. 

Sadly there are lots of boat owners out there who underestimated their costs and as a result have either a shattered dream or a poorly maintained boat. In contrast some group members treat their Amel like a family member and consistently do what is best for their Amel.

I go back to my original point,  potential buyers should speak to Bill early on, study a sample of his to do costs spreadsheet for a boat purchase, buy the Amel book, read it and be prepared. 
Bill's slogan is after all : "Prepare to cast off", not "Cast off and regret".

Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


David Vogel
 

Greetings all,

WARNING: long-read follows.

We're still in home-isolation away from Perigee, now 2 weeks and counting, still RAT positive (with symptoms), and getting a bit bored. So, I am going a little off-topic here, but in the context of a pre-purchase surveyor ...

Noting that there has recently been a steady stream of new-arrivals onto the forum, looking to purchase an AMEL. So herewith sharing our experience for the benefit of these folks, as the primary intended audience for most of what follows here. And putting it out there in front of other more experienced AMEL-owners, who may also wish to chip in and add the value of their experiences.

+++
From what I understand, the best you can get, for an AMEL-experienced eye in Europe, is Olivier, if you can get hold of him ...

As it happened, we contacted Michel Charpentier when we first started looking in 2013.
https://www.michelcharpentier.com/en/amel-boats-for-sale/
We had a 3-year plan, and weren't ready to purchase at that time. We did not even know about svDELOS at the time we decided on an AMEL Super Maramu as our blue-water cruiser. But, by the time we were ready to purchase, we had binge-watched every episode of DELOS, as well as reading probably everything possible available on the internet at that time regarding AMELs, and preparing for a cruising live-aboard lifestyle. There is much more information available these days, and most of it is more easily accessible.

We were always very up-front with everyone about where we were in our purchase process, and found that everyone we ever met in the AMEL fraternity have freely shared their insights and knowledge.

In the US, we made contact with Joel Potter, and were well happy with the experience, even though we did not end up buying through him.

We eventually purchased in late 2016.

Since then, Bill Rouse now offers pre-purchase inspection and advice, but not a formal survey, as such.

+++

As background, we were living in Europe at the time 2013-16. We firstly visited Michel Charpentier to look at the three SMs he had listed at that time - - it was the first time we had seen a SM up close and personal, beforehand only seeing pictures on the internet, plus a few videos.

Michel was very helpful in highlighting the various aspects of the AMEL marque, things to look out for, and be aware of. This stood us in good stead later on, when we looked at up to 20 AMEL SMs around the world, in person and via photo interviews. Once you know what to look for, things stand out. We compiled the full specs of every AMEL that came up for sale in that 3-year period, and this enabled us to look at photos, or on-board, and readily come to our own estimate of whether the asking price was well-matched to the market, or not. We ended walking away from a few potential purchases, with a difference of only $10,000- or so between buyer and seller, and with many more we never even considered making an offer, on the basis of clearly deficient care and maintenance practices, or weird alterations, by previous owner/s.

My recommendation here is to physically see as many AMELs as you can, even though you may still be in the early 'discovery' phase of investigating your later purchase. If you can visit an experienced AMEL owner or, better, spend time with any of the 'names', then this is the way to go.

As many others here and elsewhere have said before, a boat is a boat, and half the purchase decision relates to the "TOTAL Cost of Purchase" meaning, how well the boat has been maintained by previous owner/s, but also including fitting out even a perfectly maintained vessel to your own spec and future cruising plans. This is on top of obvious repairs, or attending to items of 'deferred maintenance'. Plus, a healthy fudge factor to make provision for the "known unknowns" - we add 15%.

In our case, we did try to get a survey by Olivier. However, 'our' boat was standing in the US, so this proved to be untenable. Achieving "the ideal" is not always possible, but with good preparation and a realistic sense of the compromise, there is no need to pass on an otherwise sound, even less-then-perfectly prepared, AMEL. In our case, with the grounding provided by Michel Charpentier, and the additional background support from Joel Potter, plus a reputable (albeit non-AMEL experienced) surveyor, even as first-boat buyers we had a fair understanding of what we were buying.

+++

As for determining the likely after-purchase "ON COSTS". We had already enjoyed a lengthy pre-purchase discussion with Joel Potter in the US, with respect to another SM we had been considering. It was a bit of a 'do-er upper-er', so we figured that almost everything on that AMEL SM would need at least some work to get us to a sail-away state of sea-worthiness.

With Joel's help and his exceptional patience, we assessed almost every system and piece of equipment, for what we might reasonably expect to spend to do a minor service, a major service, or replacement. It sounds like a big exercise, but if you can’t do this before you have a boat, while you have the luxury of time and a clear head, then (speaking from experience), you are likely to be really stretched trying to do this exercise once you have a new, needy, baby on your hands. If you are fortunate enough to have unlimited funds, or are mechanically minded, or boat-experienced, then you may not need to worry so much about this side of things.

But, in my case, with a constrained budget and having been a knowledge-worker in a former life (meaning limited mechanical aptitude and experience), we knew that we would need to buy-in the expertise to "do stuff", at least for the first 12-24 months. So, understanding the cost-commitments beyond the initial purchase price, was one of the key elements of the overall purchase decision for any boat that we looked at. In our case, we exceeded our own limit for the initial purchase price, on the basis that we understood that our 'on costs' in the first three years would likely be less than for other equivalent vessels, and that the overall spend (to get the boat ready to remote-area blue-water sail-away) would fall within budget. Fortunately, this is how it turned out.

Overall, plus 30%, or even 50%, of the initial purchase price is not an unreasonable estimate of additional funds that you may need to have available. This is in addition to day-to-day living and running costs.

+++
As it happened, the boat we had earlier been looking at with Joel, was stuck by lightning the day before we were about to make an offer, so we ended up walking away. But the hard yards - in terms of research and building an understanding of the cost the repairs and maintenance of almost everything - had already been done. So it became a relatively simple task to transfer this knowledge and understanding to any other AMEL SM that came up for sale -- a kind-of tick-box exercise, to understand the total cost of what we were buying into.

+++
Regarding estimating cost, you can get bogged down in too much detail - resulting in 'paralysis by analysis' - I got stuck in that holding pattern for about 3 months. Try to avoid this, if you can.

Eventually I used a well-less known project-management estimating technique, known as DELPHI, to help get myself out of the rut. It is "light", quick and easy method to derive useable estimates, without getting bogged-down in the minutiae, or whys-and-wherefores that are common with other estimating techniques.

The DELPHI technique uses three 'simple' metrics to derive a cost-estimate for planning. Basically, identify the least cost of doing something (e.g. a minor service), then the greatest cost (e.g., a major service, or replacement), including both parts & labour, along with your own estimate of what is the 'most likely' cost (based on age and condition of the part or system in question). This method 'forces' you to look at the range of possibilities - even when only a minor service might be required, one also researches the cost of a major service, and the cost of replacement. If the cost of a major service was greater than the cost of replacement, then the answer to that particular question was clear - simply plan to replace that piece of kit, and avoid the non-productive time and angst of trying to make a decision, or repairing an old piece of kit. Listening to other owners, it is surprising how often folks go down the path of trying to repair something that should be replaced - "If I had only known ..." being a common refrain.

Anyway, doing this estimation will give you the RANGE of likely after-purchase expenses, HIGH and LOW; noting that the sum of the high-cost estimates can result in an exceedingly frightening total. Getting a "planning estimate", using a common reference and process, can help reduce the 'fear factor' to an acceptable degree.

I have learnt from experience that the pure basic "DELPHI technique" does not translate well to the maritime environment, as it assumes a symmetric bell-curve distribution of likely cost-estimates. With a boat, nothing happens as quickly as you expect, and everything almost always costs more than you think. So, I adjusted the weightings towards the 'worst case' scenario. How to do this can quickly get complicated, so, again to avoid getting into the 'paralysis by analysis' loop, I did a few very simple scenario analyses, which resulted in a very simplistic approach, and one which has stood the test of time in many different real-world scenarios - so I share it here for the benefit of others.

My adjusted DELPHI formula is: sum of (1 x least cost, plus 2x greatest cost, plus 3x 'most likely' cost), all divided by 6.

Example: best case $1,000-, worst case $5,000-, "most likely" case $3,500-.
Working:
1x1,000 = 1,000
2x5,000 = 10,000
3x3,500 = 10,500
SUM = 21,500 /6 = $3,585-, which now becomes your 'planning' estimate for this line item.

In my experience, some things cost more, some things cost less than this derived 'planning' estimate, but somehow the overall sum of everything has worked out to be about right.

A simple spreadsheet can do the number-crunching, delivering these 'planning' estimates, which provide the basis for the initial "Go / No-Go" purchase decision.

I didn't worry too much about tweaking and fiddling, unless the "best case", "worst case", or "most likely case" figures changed - which they do, as one learns more about the cost of things. But only do a major update of the spreadsheet if there is a significant change; or periodically, at key points, such as when re-doing the schedule, or needing to look at actual-spend -versus- available-funds.

BTW, for budgeting and scheduling purposes, I grouped servicing, replacements & upgrades, and tools/gear/equipment, consumables & spares into 4 or 5 time-based categories - this didn’t alter the ultimate bottom line, but it did make consuming "the elephant" more palatable, so that I was only choking on bite-size pieces.

Illustrative time-based scheduling categories:
1. Costs to be incurred before leaving the purchase port (e.g. within the first 4 weeks of taking ownership), including for example critical additions, tools & spares, servicing, repairs & upgrades. (e.g., EPIRB, flares, life-raft, bail-out bag, harnesses & PFDs, torches, tender, outboard engine, etc etc)

2. Before head offshore (second 4 weeks: non-critical but essential preventative maintenance, newly discovered breakages & repairs, on-boarding of essential gear & equipment, e.g. new sheets & halyards).

3. Next 12-18 months, including haul-out/s, shake-down costs, essential upgrades and servicing everything as much as possible back to 'zero-time' (in my case, done at AMEL Martinique over two seasons, including major servicing of engine and drive-train (oil cooler, turbo, intercooler, replace engine & C-drive mounts, replace vetus coupling, service C-Drive, install line-cutter & service prop), full service bowthruster, service alternator/s, service ONAN (incl. water pump & heat exchanger), service water-maker, service furling motors & gearboxes for main & genoa, pre-emptive replace anchor swivel, install 400W solar, etc etc);

4. Within purchase +3 years; in my case, before heading off long-term South Pacific remote-area cruising: items such as replace house & start batteries; full suite of spares (e.g. globes (NAV & house); fuses & circuit breakers; spare seals & handles for hatches & portholes; drawer/cupboard latches; water faucets (galley, shower & basin); tools (mechanical, electrical crimpers, electrical diagnostics, battery tester, ...); and consumables (oil & coolant & filters; WM pre-filters; belts (ONAN, YANMAR, Watermaker)); might include less obvious spares, such as spare mainsail furling motor & gearbox, main circuit board for ONAN, spare watermaker membranes, service kit for CAT HP pump; spare cooler for transmission hydraulic oil; spare 'drop-in' water pump for ONAN; spare heat-exchanger for ONAN; drop-in spare freshwater pump/s; spare service alternator/s; spare high-output alternator; drop-in spare water pump for A/C; 3x sets of drop-in 'ready to fit' macerator pumps, with electrical QD connections; major & minor service kits for all pumps, gearboxes, electric motors, windlass (incl. spare deck switches); spare anchor & chain; etc etc); and, finally

5. later foreseeables (such as replace anchor chain; major service of items 'on condition' (it can be roughly estimated when these will happen), or items of on-going routine periodic maintenance); and "nice to haves" (e.g. second satellite phone, backup AIS (installed), backup VHF (installed), replacing handheld radios, more redundant NAV capability, solar upgrades, increased inverting capacity, sail repairs/upgrades/replacements, etc, etc, etc). For determining periodic service intervals, I base on 650hrs per annum for the ONAN (with 400W solar installed); and 320HRs per annum for the YANMAR (we do not hesitate to motor if we need to push through any doldrums, as the cost of wear and tear on sails to try and reduce excessive rolling far exceeds the operating cost of the engine; also, inside French Polynesian island atolls, it is rare to be able to sail, as point-to-point motoring is required to avoid bommies, or to get upwind to a sheltered anchorage, in order to minimise fetch when faced with increasing winds and building seas).

Your line-items, and when you sequence them, will vary. If you are remaining close to regular reliable supply-lines then, naturally enough, your on-board spares holding may be less. As well, your intended location/s will affect prices, especially if obtaining supply away from your home-port, affecting freight and import duties. Sometimes sourcing off-shore, while a foreign "Yacht-in-Transit", will help avoid or minimise customs duties, offset by the cost of freight. Whatever the case, the cost of getting stuff on-board should be factored in. Doing all this research from the comfort of your land-base or home-port (and with the luxury of not being "out there and doing it" in foreign lands, where culture and language add to the mix, in addition to being seen as "passing trade") will enable to you to shuffle things about, either to pull things forward, or defer them, to the most appropriate location or situation.

Hope this helps those considering buying a boat, AMEL or otherwise. Tue, AMELs are energy- and systems-intensive boats; so the overall cost of repairs and maintenance can be higher than for other boats. However, most blue-water cruisers these days have air conditioning, multiple refrigerators, water-maker and genset. So the additional costs, if any, are not that great, comparatively speaking. A huge factor that offsets any additional cost, is the accessibility and ease of repairs and maintenance, compared with many other brands and models of boats. On an AMEL, accessibility is unsurpassed. I do not cringe going into the engine room, even underway, or in rough conditions or at night, as the owners of many other brands of boat do. Pulling cables, access to batteries, helm instruments, water-maker, genset, autopilot, steering quadrant, air conditioning, refrigeration, electronics at the nav station - ease of access to all of these is unsurpassed. Can you put a price of these things? Perhaps so, as the cost to buy-in reflects this ... as do the costs of attaining, and maintaining, the style of sailing and cruising to which we AMEL owners are fortunate to have had the opportunity to get used to.

Hope this all helps folks establish realistic expectations regarding the cost-of-ownership, and thereby towards a happy journey of custodianship of their very own AMEL.

With best regards,

David
SM#396, Perigee


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Thursday, 14 July 2022 at 3:08 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Looking for agent/surveyor in south of France (Med)

Hi all,
Our search for an Amel is picking up speed. As we live in the Netherlands, and we found some Amels along the most southern Mediterranean coast of France, we're looking for a good agent + surveyor in that area, who can assist us with the purchase, paperwork, survey, etc, preferably someone familiar with Amel boats but not necessary.
We were also wondering how you can trust the broker or the agent once you send over the money (via an escrow).
Thanks and kind regards, Martijn


luvkante
 

I can say only the very best about Olivier.

Martin
AMEL 54 #149 CHIARA


Martijn BoIt
 

Thanks everybody for the (lengthy) posts with very valuable information. I don't know where to begin to respond. :-)

Regarding Olivier: I don't want to stir things up in here. If everybody considers him the best. That is fine by me. I just got messages of people who experienced problems (and heard about others with similar results) but rather post that to me via private message. It was about missing issues during the survey regarding the engine, osmosis, grounding, rigging, electrical and structural issues. I'm new and I can neither verify the positive reviews nor these negative ones.

David: Thanks for the great post. I have updated my spreadsheets with your tips/calculations :-)

After some phone calls, quite some emails and messages I get the feeling there is plenty of negotiation space when buying a used Amel. I see prices all over the place and when I compare boats (state and price) using Bill's lists I understand now some sales end-up with extreme percentages off the initial asking price.

Which brings me to my next question regarding 20-30 year old Amels: What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the price down from asking price, on average?



Olivier Beaute
 

Hello Martijn,

You're new and you cannot verify the positive or negative reviews? Well, I think you should just stop talking about me.

You are on this forum since february 2nd this year, so, you should know that saying bad things is out of this forum's policy (Bill, right?), moreover if you're not talking about your own bad experience but about someone else's.
Private and anonymous messages are, in my opinion, coward ways.

Saying that, on a survey, I missed osmosis, structural problems or engine issues, is indeed a bad thing.
Sometimes, my clients just don't say if they are happy of my work, but they ask a lot of technical questions that I try to answer the best I can.
Sometimes they are very happy about my work and the day (or two) we spent together during the boat's inspection.
They may be not happy sometimes but strangely, I don't recall any of them coming back to me after the survey and telling me I missed a structural problem (or osmosis, or engine or rigging). Maybe you could refresh my memory and disclose the name(s) of these people that you mentioned.


Oh, yes, I remember one man who recently sent me a list of issues that I did not discover during the survey 4 years ago(!) and that are still not repaired (!), and he's asking me what I think of his boat's value now.
But this man is divorcing and trying to lower his SM's value as he doesn't not want to give too much money to his ex wife (she contacted me about the current boat's value before he did...).

I'm not perfect. During a survey, I may miss some issues, but I always try to be thorough about the main parts of the vessel.

I would like to thank the people who gave me some support on this forum, but I also kindly ask that you don't say I'm the best (Bill...). It's not true and there are lots of good surveyors worldwide. 
There is no championship for the best leisure crafts surveyor and I'm sure that any surveyor who spends a full day aboard a 54 foot boat will discover all the main issues there are.

Martijn, you mentioned also the high fee. You're right and some people don't buy my services because of the fee, but this is another matter. 
There are very good cheap cars, and very good expensive cars. That's life.
Be careful if you choose the cheapest surveyor, but also if you choose the cheapest boat.

You may have a hard time finding a surveyor that suits your wishes.


Olivier.


On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 12:39:27 PM GMT+2, Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:


Thanks everybody for the (lengthy) posts with very valuable information. I don't know where to begin to respond. :-)

Regarding Olivier: I don't want to stir things up in here. If everybody considers him the best. That is fine by me. I just got messages of people who experienced problems (and heard about others with similar results) but rather post that to me via private message. It was about missing issues during the survey regarding the engine, osmosis, grounding, rigging, electrical and structural issues. I'm new and I can neither verify the positive reviews nor these negative ones.

David: Thanks for the great post. I have updated my spreadsheets with your tips/calculations :-)

After some phone calls, quite some emails and messages I get the feeling there is plenty of negotiation space when buying a used Amel. I see prices all over the place and when I compare boats (state and price) using Bill's lists I understand now some sales end-up with extreme percentages off the initial asking price.

Which brings me to my next question regarding 20-30 year old Amels: What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the price down from asking price, on average?



Roque
 

Olivier 

I will keep telling everyone I know to hire your services. Only got excelent feedback. 

The kind of details you check, the  tips and orientations you provide is top notch. 

Maybe you are not the “Best in the world”, and certainly, as you said, not perfect (who is?!). But, for me, it is as close as it gets. 

Rgds

Roque 

Attika A54 #117
Paraty- Brazil

Em sáb., 16 de jul. de 2022 às 10:41, Olivier Beaute via groups.io <atlanticyachtsurvey=yahoo.com@groups.io> escreveu:

Hello Martijn,

You're new and you cannot verify the positive or negative reviews? Well, I think you should just stop talking about me.

You are on this forum since february 2nd this year, so, you should know that saying bad things is out of this forum's policy (Bill, right?), moreover if you're not talking about your own bad experience but about someone else's.
Private and anonymous messages are, in my opinion, coward ways.

Saying that, on a survey, I missed osmosis, structural problems or engine issues, is indeed a bad thing.
Sometimes, my clients just don't say if they are happy of my work, but they ask a lot of technical questions that I try to answer the best I can.
Sometimes they are very happy about my work and the day (or two) we spent together during the boat's inspection.
They may be not happy sometimes but strangely, I don't recall any of them coming back to me after the survey and telling me I missed a structural problem (or osmosis, or engine or rigging). Maybe you could refresh my memory and disclose the name(s) of these people that you mentioned.


Oh, yes, I remember one man who recently sent me a list of issues that I did not discover during the survey 4 years ago(!) and that are still not repaired (!), and he's asking me what I think of his boat's value now.
But this man is divorcing and trying to lower his SM's value as he doesn't not want to give too much money to his ex wife (she contacted me about the current boat's value before he did...).

I'm not perfect. During a survey, I may miss some issues, but I always try to be thorough about the main parts of the vessel.

I would like to thank the people who gave me some support on this forum, but I also kindly ask that you don't say I'm the best (Bill...). It's not true and there are lots of good surveyors worldwide. 
There is no championship for the best leisure crafts surveyor and I'm sure that any surveyor who spends a full day aboard a 54 foot boat will discover all the main issues there are.

Martijn, you mentioned also the high fee. You're right and some people don't buy my services because of the fee, but this is another matter. 
There are very good cheap cars, and very good expensive cars. That's life.
Be careful if you choose the cheapest surveyor, but also if you choose the cheapest boat.

You may have a hard time finding a surveyor that suits your wishes.


Olivier.


On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 12:39:27 PM GMT+2, Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:


Thanks everybody for the (lengthy) posts with very valuable information. I don't know where to begin to respond. :-)

Regarding Olivier: I don't want to stir things up in here. If everybody considers him the best. That is fine by me. I just got messages of people who experienced problems (and heard about others with similar results) but rather post that to me via private message. It was about missing issues during the survey regarding the engine, osmosis, grounding, rigging, electrical and structural issues. I'm new and I can neither verify the positive reviews nor these negative ones.

David: Thanks for the great post. I have updated my spreadsheets with your tips/calculations :-)

After some phone calls, quite some emails and messages I get the feeling there is plenty of negotiation space when buying a used Amel. I see prices all over the place and when I compare boats (state and price) using Bill's lists I understand now some sales end-up with extreme percentages off the initial asking price.

Which brings me to my next question regarding 20-30 year old Amels: What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the price down from asking price, on average?



--
Roque
Attika A54 117
Paraty - Brazil 


 

All,

I agree with David Vogel because if you follow his process you will probably not have any unreal expectations by the time the boat is surveyed. Unreal expectations will create problems in any transaction, especially the purchase of an Amel.

I agree completely with Olivier Beaute. Thank you for your response. I know that you are honorable, trustworthy, and extremely knowledgeable. 

Our Group: Nobody should repeat negative hearsay on Group email. Martijn Bolt please do not do this again. 

Personal Comment: It always disappoints me when someone with unreal expectations and/or poor planning tries to blame others for a transaction that he considers faulty. In my experience, there is always more to the story that remains untold.
 
Anyone is interested in the process that I use to provide an Estimate Spreadsheet of deficiencies when reviewing an Amel it is on my website: (https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/buying-amel.html). I have used this process on over 100 Amels in Europe, the US, and the rest of the world. I suggest that you use something similar when shopping for an Amel, whether you use me, someone else, or go it alone. 

On my website, you will also find some helpful hints and some sample Estimate spreadsheets that you can download and are free to use: (https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/buying-amel.html). You will see list of a few recommended Brokers, Surveyors, Insurance Agents, and Documentation Agents in the US, Caribbean, and Europe. I have zero financial interest in any referral. My recommendations are based on and limited to my personal experience. Don't miss some of the photo examples of what you might see when looking for an Amel. These may make you laugh and cry at the same time.

Final hints: When buying or selling anything, trust between the parties is invaluable, as well as the correct expectations. Hopefully, the parties involved are honorable and trustworthy. You should be aware of the natural conflicts that will exist and consider those in all aspects of the transaction. It is possible for any person to successfully conceal some things from you, a broker, or a surveyor. It seldom happens, but it happens.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Sat, Jul 16, 2022 at 5:39 AM Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:

Thanks everybody for the (lengthy) posts with very valuable information. I don't know where to begin to respond. :-)

Regarding Olivier: I don't want to stir things up in here. If everybody considers him the best. That is fine by me. I just got messages of people who experienced problems (and heard about others with similar results) but rather post that to me via private message. It was about missing issues during the survey regarding the engine, osmosis, grounding, rigging, electrical and structural issues. I'm new and I can neither verify the positive reviews nor these negative ones.

David: Thanks for the great post. I have updated my spreadsheets with your tips/calculations :-)

After some phone calls, quite some emails and messages I get the feeling there is plenty of negotiation space when buying a used Amel. I see prices all over the place and when I compare boats (state and price) using Bill's lists I understand now some sales end-up with extreme percentages off the initial asking price.

Which brings me to my next question regarding 20-30 year old Amels: What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the price down from asking price, on average?



Rachael
 

Well said Olivier.

Martijn, I didn’t find your last message comfortable reading. Think of this group as your future Amel family. We’re here to mutually support one another. Olivier often contributes sound and valuable advice across varied topics in this group, so is well thought of.

Regards

Rachael

Rachael & Robin
SM232, Leros. Greece