Looking for agent/surveyor in south of France (Med) [What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the down >>> [the] asking price ]


David Vogel
 

Greetings Martijn,

Regarding your question about:
Which brings me to my next question regarding 20-30 year old
Amels: What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the price
down from asking price, on average?
SHORT ANSWER:

As this group likely comprises mainly owners, you’re probably asking the wrong demographic.

Nevertheless, I see the current environment very much as a seller's market, so there is probably little-to-no motivation for a seller of a well-found AMEL to accept much less than a fairly established asking price.

Best,

David
SM#396, Perigee

+++++
LONG answer ...

... despite (or, perhaps, as a result of) the negative effects of the present global societal conundrums — geopolitical tensions, high inflation and the uncertainty about how far interest rates will rise, waning consumer confidence, combined with the war in Ukraine and its deleterious effect on global energy and food prices — we see ever greater numbers of folks wanting to buy their dream-boat and sail-away.

This trend is, I believe, partly also the result of social media and yachting influencers such as Sailing LaVagabod and, closer to home, svDELOS; as well as the explosion of the ‘University of U-Tube’, effectively encouraging folks to take on the challenges of the sailing lifestyle, as it appears more easily accessible to anyone, and achievable by all.

When we were scheming the purchase of our own AMEL, 2014-16, we had made our own market-based assessment of the likely range of $- and %-based depreciation of our SM over the expected term of our custodianship. However, from what I am seeing since the “recovery” from COVID, these old rules-of-thumb from the mid-to-late 20-teens no longer hold true. A well-maintained Super Maramu is worth at least, perhaps more, in dollar-terms, than it was 3-5 years ago.

We are not (yet) seeing huge upwards trends in the price of second-hand boats, as we have already seen in the second-hand markets of vehicles and real-estate. Is this likely to occur in future?

I don’t know, but who foresaw that the consequences of a global pandemic would include the explosive growth in the prices of real-estate, caravans, motor-homes and camper trailers?? So, in the interim, it is anyone's guess, and you might wish to ask any broker, and you may not be surprised to find that the average turn-over time of good second-hand boats coming onto the market is now appreciably shorter than it was pre-pandemic.

To me, the conclusions are clear --- those looking for a second-hand blue-water cruiser, whether cat or mono, already set-up or not, demand is up, supply is fixed, and it is a seller’s market.

Add to that the fact that AMEL holds a particularly fond niche near the top-end in the blue-water cruising community, and I would be bold enough to say that, regarding any %-based haggle-factor when negotiating the purchase-price of a well-found AMEL, these days there is probably little-to-none.

There will be exceptions to any rule, of course; but, as the saying goes, the most expensive boat you are likely to buy, is the cheapest one.

To explain this, I have personally seen numerous cases where someone has said to me, "Oh, I would have liked to buy an AMEL, they are the best, but they are too expensive". When finding out more about the boat they settled on (such as any of the well-known blue-water cruisers, with examples drawn from these brands, in no particular order: Beneteau, HR, Hylas, Island Packet, Kaufmann, Tayana) - yes, undeniably, the initial purchase price was good. But to bring their boat up to anywhere near the level of equipment that comes as standard on a later-model AMEL (SM, and on), ended up costing them many 10s of thousands (in some cases, several 100s of thousands) of dollars, in addition to costing them years of their early retirement spent doing the refurb, when they would (in retrospect) have preferred to have been "out there and doing it". And, even after having spent these $$$s and all that precious time, the built-in safety features, comfort, and ease of maintainability, still (arguably) nowhere close.

BTW, it was actually the safety-features, like well-protected centre-cockpit, hard-safety rails, in-cockpit electric sail-handling controls, built-in mechanical fall-backs for genoa & main furlers, emergency tiller, (and the list goes on), and just plain smart simple evolved design which, once we knew about and understood the value of these things, established the entry-level gate for us, thereby setting the standard against which other boats came to be measured, and resulted in us deciding that we could, if we really really wanted to, afford an AMEL.

But, if you're on this forum, would probably already know about the AMEL's innate safety-feature, and appreciate such things.

For the less tangibles, we are glad we went the AMEL route as, even in the roughest conditions on-the-wind, taking blue-water rolling up the foredeck to bury the windscreen, we have not yet needed to don our wet-weather gear - it has been shirt-sleeves sailing all along (apart from when anchoring or getting underway in the rain). And, I touch wood here, as 'pride cometh before a fall' and I know that we’re only as good (or as lucky) as our last passage -- however, thus far, when others arrive soaked-through and salt-encrusted, tired and cranky, with water sloshing about below, battling on-deck to lower their sails in the blustery conditions; we have dry bilges and have been enjoying the conditions, even taking a hot-shower as we approach our anchorage, changing into fresh clothes before we easily furl our sails and get the obligatory arrival drinks & nibblies ready for sun-downers. (It's not just me -- I had a knowing smile when I recently read the story of a recent new SM owner, on his first 'owner's delivery', revelling and marvelling at the comfort-factor in conditions that had others moaning and groaning.)

But, to provide some balance by means of self-disclosure, I do hold an unashamed and resolute case of "buyers' bias", arguing the case after-the-fact to support my own purchase decision. So, I suggest that you take whatever here I say with a grain of salt, or perhaps a boatload, especially if you decide on a boat that has an open, aft, unprotected cockpit, or a boat that requires you to leave the cockpit or, worse, go to the mast to reef the main ;- )

I hope that this assists you in building a sound understanding of the world-of-AMEL.

And with kind regards,

David
SM#396, Perigee


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, 16 July 2022 at 8:39 pm
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Looking for agent/surveyor in south of France (Med)

Thanks everybody for the (lengthy) posts with very valuable information. I don't know where to begin to respond. :-)
Regarding Olivier: I don't want to stir things up in here. If everybody considers him the best. That is fine by me. I just got messages of people who experienced problems (and heard about others with similar results) but rather post that to me via private message. It was about missing issues during the survey regarding the engine, osmosis, grounding, rigging, electrical and structural issues. I'm new and I can neither verify the positive reviews nor these negative ones.

David: Thanks for the great post. I have updated my spreadsheets with your tips/calculations :-)

After some phone calls, quite some emails and messages I get the feeling there is plenty of negotiation space when buying a used Amel. I see prices all over the place and when I compare boats (state and price) using Bill's lists I understand now some sales end-up with extreme percentages off the initial asking price.

Which brings me to my next question regarding 20-30 year old Amels: What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the price down from asking price, on average?


Nick Newington
 

With regard to Amel yachts;

In my view it is a sellers market. There are a number of factors at play;

1. Not least the rising cost of manufacturing. The cost of resin is rising in line with oil prices! Aluminium, stainless steel etc etc etc.

2. The new Amels are not cheap! And the prices will have to go up in line with production costs.

3. There are no new ketch rigged Amels being manufactured. So supply is tight. There are also very few ketches being manufactured by other boat builders.

4. The rise of Youtube sailing channels has increased demand for cruising yachts. The “Delos” effect is real.

5. Demographics; there are a lot of boomers retiring. This is likely to continue for a decade or so. Then we all know what will happen.

Although clearly buying an Amel is not a good investment, it is likely to hold its value or even appreciate in value in an inflationary era. Of course the running costs will more than outweigh that. But if you use your boat, maintain it well, chances are than in 5 years you will be able to sell it for what you paid for it. 

I have owned three boats, the first one I sold five years after purchasing it for 25% more than I paid (I bought well)…. The second I had for ten years and sold it for the same price I paid for it.

As for Amelia, I have no intention of selling her for a good while yet.

Kind regards

Nick (in the UK)
S/Y Amelia
AML 54-019
Leros Gr



On 18 Jul 2022, at 07:16, David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:

Greetings Martijn,

Regarding your question about:
Which brings me to my next question regarding 20-30 year old
Amels: What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the price
down from asking price, on average?

SHORT ANSWER:

As this group likely comprises mainly owners, you’re probably asking the wrong demographic.

Nevertheless, I see the current environment very much as a seller's market, so there is probably little-to-no motivation for a seller of a well-found AMEL to accept much less than a fairly established asking price.

Best,

David
SM#396, Perigee

+++++
LONG answer ...

... despite (or, perhaps, as a result of) the negative effects of the present global societal conundrums — geopolitical tensions, high inflation and the uncertainty about how far interest rates will rise, waning consumer confidence, combined with the war in Ukraine and its deleterious effect on global energy and food prices — we see ever greater numbers of folks wanting to buy their dream-boat and sail-away.

This trend is, I believe, partly also the result of social media and yachting influencers such as Sailing LaVagabod and, closer to home, svDELOS; as well as the explosion of the ‘University of U-Tube’, effectively encouraging folks to take on the challenges of the sailing lifestyle, as it appears more easily accessible to anyone, and achievable by all.

When we were scheming the purchase of our own AMEL, 2014-16, we had made our own market-based assessment of the likely range of $- and %-based depreciation of our SM over the expected term of our custodianship.  However, from what I am seeing since the “recovery” from COVID, these old rules-of-thumb from the mid-to-late 20-teens no longer hold true.  A well-maintained Super Maramu is worth at least, perhaps more, in dollar-terms, than it was 3-5 years ago.

We are not (yet) seeing huge upwards trends in the price of second-hand boats, as we have already seen in the second-hand markets of vehicles and real-estate.   Is this likely to occur in future?

I don’t know, but who foresaw that the consequences of a global pandemic would include the explosive growth in the prices of real-estate, caravans, motor-homes and camper trailers??  So, in the interim, it is anyone's guess, and you might wish to ask any broker, and you may not be surprised to find that the average turn-over time of good second-hand boats coming onto the market is now appreciably shorter than it was pre-pandemic.

To me, the conclusions are clear --- those looking for a second-hand blue-water cruiser, whether cat or mono, already set-up or not, demand is up, supply is fixed, and it is a seller’s market.

Add to that the fact that AMEL holds a particularly fond niche near the top-end in the blue-water cruising community, and I would be bold enough to say that, regarding any %-based haggle-factor when negotiating the purchase-price of a well-found AMEL, these days there is probably little-to-none.

There will be exceptions to any rule, of course; but, as the saying goes, the most expensive boat you are likely to buy, is the cheapest one.

To explain this, I have personally seen numerous cases where someone has said to me, "Oh, I would have liked to buy an AMEL, they are the best, but they are too expensive".  When finding out more about the boat they settled on (such as any of the well-known blue-water cruisers, with examples drawn from these brands, in no particular order: Beneteau, HR, Hylas, Island Packet, Kaufmann, Tayana) - yes, undeniably, the initial purchase price was good.  But to bring their boat up to anywhere near the level of equipment that comes as standard on a later-model AMEL (SM, and on), ended up costing them many 10s of thousands (in some cases, several 100s of thousands) of dollars, in addition to costing them years of their early retirement spent doing the refurb, when they would (in retrospect) have preferred to have been "out there and doing it".  And, even after having spent these $$$s and all that precious time, the built-in safety features, comfort, and ease of maintainability, still (arguably) nowhere close.

BTW, it was actually the safety-features, like well-protected centre-cockpit, hard-safety rails, in-cockpit electric sail-handling controls, built-in mechanical fall-backs for genoa & main furlers, emergency tiller, (and the list goes on), and just plain smart simple evolved design which, once we knew about and understood the value of these things, established the entry-level gate for us, thereby setting the standard against which other boats came to be measured, and resulted in us deciding that we could, if we really really wanted to, afford an AMEL.

But, if you're on this forum, would probably already know about the AMEL's innate safety-feature, and appreciate such things.

For the less tangibles, we are glad we went the AMEL route as, even in the roughest conditions on-the-wind, taking blue-water rolling up the foredeck to bury the windscreen, we have not yet needed to don our wet-weather gear - it has been shirt-sleeves sailing all along (apart from when anchoring or getting underway in the rain).  And, I touch wood here, as 'pride cometh before a fall' and I know that we’re only as good (or as lucky) as our last passage -- however, thus far, when others arrive soaked-through and salt-encrusted, tired and cranky, with water sloshing about below, battling on-deck to lower their sails in the blustery conditions; we have dry bilges and have been enjoying the conditions, even taking a hot-shower as we approach our anchorage, changing into fresh clothes before we easily furl our sails and get the obligatory arrival drinks & nibblies ready for sun-downers.   (It's not just me -- I had a knowing smile when I recently read the story of a recent new SM owner, on his first 'owner's delivery', revelling and marvelling at the comfort-factor in conditions that had others moaning and groaning.)

But, to provide some balance by means of self-disclosure, I do hold an unashamed and resolute case of "buyers' bias", arguing the case after-the-fact to support my own purchase decision.  So, I suggest that you take whatever here I say with a grain of salt, or perhaps a boatload, especially if you decide on a boat that has an open, aft, unprotected cockpit, or a boat that requires you to leave the cockpit or, worse, go to the mast to reef the main   ;- )

I hope that this assists you in building a sound understanding of the world-of-AMEL.

And with kind regards,

David
SM#396, Perigee


From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, 16 July 2022 at 8:39 pm
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Looking for agent/surveyor in south of France (Med)

Thanks everybody for the (lengthy) posts with very valuable information. I don't know where to begin to respond. :-)
Regarding Olivier: I don't want to stir things up in here. If everybody considers him the best. That is fine by me. I just got messages of people who experienced problems (and heard about others with similar results) but rather post that to me via private message. It was about missing issues during the survey regarding the engine, osmosis, grounding, rigging, electrical and structural issues. I'm new and I can neither verify the positive reviews nor these negative ones.

David: Thanks for the great post. I have updated my spreadsheets with your tips/calculations :-)

After some phone calls, quite some emails and messages I get the feeling there is plenty of negotiation space when buying a used Amel. I see prices all over the place and when I compare boats (state and price) using Bill's lists I understand now some sales end-up with extreme percentages off the initial asking price.

Which brings me to my next question regarding 20-30 year old Amels: What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the price down from asking price, on average?











Paul Harries
 

From a potential buyers perspective I agree with most of the above.
A well known broker told me last year he had a waiting list of buyers for SMs.
I have seen no SNs for sale in Europe or North America in the last year.
Just look at the for sale section of this board to gauge availability.
Anyone who offers you a discount at present is likely either starting very high or has a very good reason to get rid of their boat.
I asked the same question as you did a few years ago of a well known group member and was told, "every boat is different, ask Bill for a valuation of the actual boat you want".
Personally, I am heading advice given to me as a child, "buying in a seller's market is a mug's game".

-
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Rodney Aylmore
 

Just want to say thanks for the level of detail you have gone into here and on the other thread. Very helpful for a future prospective buyer.

Regards,
Rodney Aylmore
(3-4 years away from Amel ownership but researching and working for the dream)


Sietske Cnossen
 

Dear Martijn ,

Just a recent experience.
We sold our Amel Kirk last winter for the price we paid 15(!) years ago. This was above our asking price.
We bought an Amel Sharki and paid the asking price.
Both Amels are worth their money. Not only because there aren't too many of them. And there is a reason our new boat is again Amel. We are hooked.

Kind regards,
Sietske
Sharki Frangipane.


ianjenkins1946 <ianjudyjenkins@hotmail.com>
 

Hi Martin,

We have owned Amels for  33 years, starting with a Sharki, then a Maramu and for the last 22 years a Supermaramu.  If we had won a lottery we would still own all three--one in the Med, one in England and one in Chile.

 As Nick says, Amels are not a good investment if you are just looking to make money, but they have been the greatest investment we could have ever made in terms of enjoying our lives, taking us to extraordinary places and meeting extraordinary people, many of whom you will read of on this website but others, equally, who just go their own quiet way.

Owning an Amel opens up a wonderful life long interest.

Bonne chance !

Ian and Judy, Pen Azen, SM 302, Kilada, Greece


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Sietske Cnossen <sscnossen@...>
Sent: 18 July 2022 18:29
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Looking for agent/surveyor in south of France (Med) [What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the down >>> [the] asking price ]
 
Dear Martijn ,

Just a recent experience.
We sold our Amel Kirk last winter for the price we paid 15(!) years ago. This was above our asking price.
We bought an Amel Sharki and paid the asking price.
Both Amels are worth their money. Not only because there aren't too many of them. And there is a reason our new boat is again Amel. We are hooked.

Kind regards,
Sietske
Sharki Frangipane.


Martijn
 

Hi David, Thank you for re-opening my question via this thread with this long (and short) response.

 

To all: Thanks. These posts are very much clarifying and sometimes reaffirming things I thought already (more or less).
 

Besides chartering sailboats as much as we can we've been "web sailing" and thinking about our first boat for many years now. About two year ago I stumbled upon Amel and found out about the amazing features and design philosophy. Since then our focus shifted, from some of the brands left on our long list as mentioned above, to Amel exclusively. From what I have found they are, in many aspects, the best-fit for what we want and plan to do.


Surprising to see that a well maintained Amel remains its value and interesting to see how things like the current global market, Delos, COVID, boomers, (ketch) manufacturing, and other developments (currently) have their part in this. Great comments and good advice especially when I think about negotiations as a buyer. I don't enjoy negotiations so I'm glad to now understand the few excessive prices I saw are probably just outliers, as most Amels "a vendre" are just that: Reasonably priced, although overall somewhat higher priced than last year, often with little room for negotiation (depending on the outcome of a survey/pre-purchase consult ofcourse).

 

@Paul. I'm confused by your comment mentioning no SM's are for sale in Europe. Quite some SM's show(ed) up on my list of available Amels, starting early 2021. I'm looking at the maintained websites from brokers and have contacted some of them. They (even recently) mentioned the SM's can be viewed now or sometimes towards the end of the season. (You wrote SN, not SM, I assume that was a typo).

 

Thanks again,

Martijn


 

One last comment on this thread. 

Opinion:
The lowest-priced Amel you can find advertised or through negotiation will be the most expensive.

The price you pay for a good Amel will be based on the model, the market, age, and the cost to refit the Amel into good condition. It is math rather than negotiation.  

I have some things that you can use on my website: https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/buying-amel.html Download a Sample Estimate Spreadsheet, or all 3 of them. Use a highly Amel-experienced broker. This is NOT someone who sold 4 Amels last year. The same thing applies to Surveyors.

Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 7:10 AM Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:

Hi David, Thank you for re-opening my question via this thread with this long (and short) response.

 

To all: Thanks. These posts are very much clarifying and sometimes reaffirming things I thought already (more or less).
 

Besides chartering sailboats as much as we can we've been "web sailing" and thinking about our first boat for many years now. About two year ago I stumbled upon Amel and found out about the amazing features and design philosophy. Since then our focus shifted, from some of the brands left on our long list as mentioned above, to Amel exclusively. From what I have found they are, in many aspects, the best-fit for what we want and plan to do.


Surprising to see that a well maintained Amel remains its value and interesting to see how things like the current global market, Delos, COVID, boomers, (ketch) manufacturing, and other developments (currently) have their part in this. Great comments and good advice especially when I think about negotiations as a buyer. I don't enjoy negotiations so I'm glad to now understand the few excessive prices I saw are probably just outliers, as most Amels "a vendre" are just that: Reasonably priced, although overall somewhat higher priced than last year, often with little room for negotiation (depending on the outcome of a survey/pre-purchase consult ofcourse).

 

@Paul. I'm confused by your comment mentioning no SM's are for sale in Europe. Quite some SM's show(ed) up on my list of available Amels, starting early 2021. I'm looking at the maintained websites from brokers and have contacted some of them. They (even recently) mentioned the SM's can be viewed now or sometimes towards the end of the season. (You wrote SN, not SM, I assume that was a typo).

 

Thanks again,

Martijn


Paul Harries
 

I said SN not SM
SN is for Santorin



--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Rachael
 

Hello again Martijn

We bought our Super Maramu this March in Portugal with Bill Rouse acting as our pre-purchase advisor and Olivier was our surveyor - a dream team in our experience.  

We did not consider negotiating over the price as we knew it to be fair given the research we'd done in the preceding months, Bill's feedback and the excellent condition it was kept in, along with everything it came with - thank you Jonas and Sophie!  

Do your research as others have advised and when a good one comes along leap on it before someone else does!

Rachael
--
Rachael & Robin Courtenay
Pérdika SM232, Leros


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

I agree with Bill completely. We had planned on selling Ocean Pearl after we got her back to NZ. Listed her and one of the interested parties loved her but said she was too expensive. They found a cheap one in Panama and bought it. The wife contacted me a year later saying they would have saved a lot of money if they had bought Ocean Pearl. I was grateful because we came to our senses and still own Ocean Pearl. And will for the foreseeable future.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

On 20/07/2022 00:30 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


One last comment on this thread. 

Opinion:
The lowest-priced Amel you can find advertised or through negotiation will be the most expensive.

The price you pay for a good Amel will be based on the model, the market, age, and the cost to refit the Amel into good condition. It is math rather than negotiation.  

I have some things that you can use on my website: https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/buying-amel.html Download a Sample Estimate Spreadsheet, or all 3 of them. Use a highly Amel-experienced broker. This is NOT someone who sold 4 Amels last year. The same thing applies to Surveyors.


Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 7:10 AM Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:

Hi David, Thank you for re-opening my question via this thread with this long (and short) response.


To all: Thanks. These posts are very much clarifying and sometimes reaffirming things I thought already (more or less).
 

Besides chartering sailboats as much as we can we've been "web sailing" and thinking about our first boat for many years now. About two year ago I stumbled upon Amel and found out about the amazing features and design philosophy. Since then our focus shifted, from some of the brands left on our long list as mentioned above, to Amel exclusively. From what I have found they are, in many aspects, the best-fit for what we want and plan to do.


Surprising to see that a well maintained Amel remains its value and interesting to see how things like the current global market, Delos, COVID, boomers, (ketch) manufacturing, and other developments (currently) have their part in this. Great comments and good advice especially when I think about negotiations as a buyer. I don't enjoy negotiations so I'm glad to now understand the few excessive prices I saw are probably just outliers, as most Amels "a vendre" are just that: Reasonably priced, although overall somewhat higher priced than last year, often with little room for negotiation (depending on the outcome of a survey/pre-purchase consult ofcourse).


@Paul. I'm confused by your comment mentioning no SM's are for sale in Europe. Quite some SM's show(ed) up on my list of available Amels, starting early 2021. I'm looking at the maintained websites from brokers and have contacted some of them. They (even recently) mentioned the SM's can be viewed now or sometimes towards the end of the season. (You wrote SN, not SM, I assume that was a typo).


Thanks again,

Martijn




William O'Toole
 

I saw a Video by a couple sailing a Swan 46? in May 2020 highlighting your extensive fitting out of your boat before you set sail. It was an exhaustive and detailed (with costs) interview/boat tour and I wrote down the incurred, and estimated ongoing annual maintenance of approximately $45,000 USD. It took me awhile to link that video with your entries on this user group. So if you ever do decide to sell it’s all on record for any buyer to realize how much effort and resources/$$ you have put in over the period of your ownership. Quite an Ocean Pearl indeed!

William Sent from my iPhone 

On Jul 19, 2022, at 12:36 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:


I agree with Bill completely. We had planned on selling Ocean Pearl after we got her back to NZ. Listed her and one of the interested parties loved her but said she was too expensive. They found a cheap one in Panama and bought it. The wife contacted me a year later saying they would have saved a lot of money if they had bought Ocean Pearl. I was grateful because we came to our senses and still own Ocean Pearl. And will for the foreseeable future.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 20/07/2022 00:30 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


One last comment on this thread. 

Opinion:
The lowest-priced Amel you can find advertised or through negotiation will be the most expensive.

The price you pay for a good Amel will be based on the model, the market, age, and the cost to refit the Amel into good condition. It is math rather than negotiation.  

I have some things that you can use on my website: https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/buying-amel.html Download a Sample Estimate Spreadsheet, or all 3 of them. Use a highly Amel-experienced broker. This is NOT someone who sold 4 Amels last year. The same thing applies to Surveyors.


Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 7:10 AM Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:

Hi David, Thank you for re-opening my question via this thread with this long (and short) response.


To all: Thanks. These posts are very much clarifying and sometimes reaffirming things I thought already (more or less).
 

Besides chartering sailboats as much as we can we've been "web sailing" and thinking about our first boat for many years now. About two year ago I stumbled upon Amel and found out about the amazing features and design philosophy. Since then our focus shifted, from some of the brands left on our long list as mentioned above, to Amel exclusively. From what I have found they are, in many aspects, the best-fit for what we want and plan to do.


Surprising to see that a well maintained Amel remains its value and interesting to see how things like the current global market, Delos, COVID, boomers, (ketch) manufacturing, and other developments (currently) have their part in this. Great comments and good advice especially when I think about negotiations as a buyer. I don't enjoy negotiations so I'm glad to now understand the few excessive prices I saw are probably just outliers, as most Amels "a vendre" are just that: Reasonably priced, although overall somewhat higher priced than last year, often with little room for negotiation (depending on the outcome of a survey/pre-purchase consult ofcourse).


@Paul. I'm confused by your comment mentioning no SM's are for sale in Europe. Quite some SM's show(ed) up on my list of available Amels, starting early 2021. I'm looking at the maintained websites from brokers and have contacted some of them. They (even recently) mentioned the SM's can be viewed now or sometimes towards the end of the season. (You wrote SN, not SM, I assume that was a typo).


Thanks again,

Martijn




Paul Harries
 

I suggest you look at the website of the Amal owners "mothership adrift", they also have a YouTube channel. Both owners are extremely experienced sailors and the husband seems  proficient at mechanical maintenance. They bought a cheap super maramu and do a good job of detailing all of the unexpected maintenance and headache issues that result from buying a boat that has been suboptimally maintained.
Sadly many of the YouTube channels out there want to glorify cruising and make it look easy and cheap, that is how they gain viewers and make money.
https://www.mothershipadrift.com/
--
Paul Harries
Prospective Amel Buyer


Martijn
 
Edited

""I said SN not SM

SN is for Santorin""

I guess I'm that wet behind the ears. :-D


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

I am fortunate that I am a practical sailor and can do lot of work myself. If you are going to.pay someone to do it all, it will be huge. My annual costs have been no where near the 40k mentioned. More like half that nz$. I got lazy this year and paid  oh boy. What a difference.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

On 20/07/2022 08:16 William O'Toole <william@...> wrote:


I saw a Video by a couple sailing a Swan 46? in May 2020 highlighting your extensive fitting out of your boat before you set sail. It was an exhaustive and detailed (with costs) interview/boat tour and I wrote down the incurred, and estimated ongoing annual maintenance of approximately $45,000 USD. It took me awhile to link that video with your entries on this user group. So if you ever do decide to sell it’s all on record for any buyer to realize how much effort and resources/$$ you have put in over the period of your ownership. Quite an Ocean Pearl indeed!

William Sent from my iPhone 

On Jul 19, 2022, at 12:36 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

I agree with Bill completely. We had planned on selling Ocean Pearl after we got her back to NZ. Listed her and one of the interested parties loved her but said she was too expensive. They found a cheap one in Panama and bought it. The wife contacted me a year later saying they would have saved a lot of money if they had bought Ocean Pearl. I was grateful because we came to our senses and still own Ocean Pearl. And will for the foreseeable future.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 20/07/2022 00:30 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


One last comment on this thread. 

Opinion:
The lowest-priced Amel you can find advertised or through negotiation will be the most expensive.

The price you pay for a good Amel will be based on the model, the market, age, and the cost to refit the Amel into good condition. It is math rather than negotiation.  

I have some things that you can use on my website: https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/buying-amel.html Download a Sample Estimate Spreadsheet, or all 3 of them. Use a highly Amel-experienced broker. This is NOT someone who sold 4 Amels last year. The same thing applies to Surveyors.


Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 7:10 AM Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:

Hi David, Thank you for re-opening my question via this thread with this long (and short) response.


To all: Thanks. These posts are very much clarifying and sometimes reaffirming things I thought already (more or less).
 

Besides chartering sailboats as much as we can we've been "web sailing" and thinking about our first boat for many years now. About two year ago I stumbled upon Amel and found out about the amazing features and design philosophy. Since then our focus shifted, from some of the brands left on our long list as mentioned above, to Amel exclusively. From what I have found they are, in many aspects, the best-fit for what we want and plan to do.


Surprising to see that a well maintained Amel remains its value and interesting to see how things like the current global market, Delos, COVID, boomers, (ketch) manufacturing, and other developments (currently) have their part in this. Great comments and good advice especially when I think about negotiations as a buyer. I don't enjoy negotiations so I'm glad to now understand the few excessive prices I saw are probably just outliers, as most Amels "a vendre" are just that: Reasonably priced, although overall somewhat higher priced than last year, often with little room for negotiation (depending on the outcome of a survey/pre-purchase consult ofcourse).


@Paul. I'm confused by your comment mentioning no SM's are for sale in Europe. Quite some SM's show(ed) up on my list of available Amels, starting early 2021. I'm looking at the maintained websites from brokers and have contacted some of them. They (even recently) mentioned the SM's can be viewed now or sometimes towards the end of the season. (You wrote SN, not SM, I assume that was a typo).


Thanks again,

Martijn




William O'Toole
 

Thanks for the update on maintenance costs. You and your boat are top notch. 

William Sent from my iPhone 

On Jul 19, 2022, at 5:58 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:


I am fortunate that I am a practical sailor and can do lot of work myself. If you are going to.pay someone to do it all, it will be huge. My annual costs have been no where near the 40k mentioned. More like half that nz$. I got lazy this year and paid  oh boy. What a difference.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 20/07/2022 08:16 William O'Toole <william@...> wrote:


I saw a Video by a couple sailing a Swan 46? in May 2020 highlighting your extensive fitting out of your boat before you set sail. It was an exhaustive and detailed (with costs) interview/boat tour and I wrote down the incurred, and estimated ongoing annual maintenance of approximately $45,000 USD. It took me awhile to link that video with your entries on this user group. So if you ever do decide to sell it’s all on record for any buyer to realize how much effort and resources/$$ you have put in over the period of your ownership. Quite an Ocean Pearl indeed!

William Sent from my iPhone 

On Jul 19, 2022, at 12:36 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

I agree with Bill completely. We had planned on selling Ocean Pearl after we got her back to NZ. Listed her and one of the interested parties loved her but said she was too expensive. They found a cheap one in Panama and bought it. The wife contacted me a year later saying they would have saved a lot of money if they had bought Ocean Pearl. I was grateful because we came to our senses and still own Ocean Pearl. And will for the foreseeable future.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 20/07/2022 00:30 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


One last comment on this thread. 

Opinion:
The lowest-priced Amel you can find advertised or through negotiation will be the most expensive.

The price you pay for a good Amel will be based on the model, the market, age, and the cost to refit the Amel into good condition. It is math rather than negotiation.  

I have some things that you can use on my website: https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/buying-amel.html Download a Sample Estimate Spreadsheet, or all 3 of them. Use a highly Amel-experienced broker. This is NOT someone who sold 4 Amels last year. The same thing applies to Surveyors.


Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 7:10 AM Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:

Hi David, Thank you for re-opening my question via this thread with this long (and short) response.


To all: Thanks. These posts are very much clarifying and sometimes reaffirming things I thought already (more or less).
 

Besides chartering sailboats as much as we can we've been "web sailing" and thinking about our first boat for many years now. About two year ago I stumbled upon Amel and found out about the amazing features and design philosophy. Since then our focus shifted, from some of the brands left on our long list as mentioned above, to Amel exclusively. From what I have found they are, in many aspects, the best-fit for what we want and plan to do.


Surprising to see that a well maintained Amel remains its value and interesting to see how things like the current global market, Delos, COVID, boomers, (ketch) manufacturing, and other developments (currently) have their part in this. Great comments and good advice especially when I think about negotiations as a buyer. I don't enjoy negotiations so I'm glad to now understand the few excessive prices I saw are probably just outliers, as most Amels "a vendre" are just that: Reasonably priced, although overall somewhat higher priced than last year, often with little room for negotiation (depending on the outcome of a survey/pre-purchase consult ofcourse).


@Paul. I'm confused by your comment mentioning no SM's are for sale in Europe. Quite some SM's show(ed) up on my list of available Amels, starting early 2021. I'm looking at the maintained websites from brokers and have contacted some of them. They (even recently) mentioned the SM's can be viewed now or sometimes towards the end of the season. (You wrote SN, not SM, I assume that was a typo).


Thanks again,

Martijn




Patrick McAneny
 

I agree with Danny, I too do virtually all my own work. In fact I paid a marina thousands to do repairs to my boat, they screwed things up to the point that even though I had already paid them ,I told them I would finish all the repairs myself and I did . 
You are not replacing rigging ,sails ,instruments or engines every couple of years ,so I don't know how you could send $50,000 /yr. to maintain a SM . What would you be spending that kind of  money on year after year ? If it cost that much ,I would be sailing a sunfish or maybe a laser. 
Bill's annual expenses included all living costs associated with sailing around the world , down to including ice cream cones and candy bars , look at his spread sheet ,it is very detailed, amazing .
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Jul 19, 2022 8:58 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Looking for agent/surveyor in south of France (Med) [What percentage do negotiations tend to bring the down >>> [the] asking price ]

I am fortunate that I am a practical sailor and can do lot of work myself. If you are going to.pay someone to do it all, it will be huge. My annual costs have been no where near the 40k mentioned. More like half that nz$. I got lazy this year and paid  oh boy. What a difference.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 20/07/2022 08:16 William O'Toole <william@...> wrote:


I saw a Video by a couple sailing a Swan 46? in May 2020 highlighting your extensive fitting out of your boat before you set sail. It was an exhaustive and detailed (with costs) interview/boat tour and I wrote down the incurred, and estimated ongoing annual maintenance of approximately $45,000 USD. It took me awhile to link that video with your entries on this user group. So if you ever do decide to sell it’s all on record for any buyer to realize how much effort and resources/$$ you have put in over the period of your ownership. Quite an Ocean Pearl indeed!

William Sent from my iPhone 

On Jul 19, 2022, at 12:36 PM, Danny and Yvonne SIMMS <simms@...> wrote:

I agree with Bill completely. We had planned on selling Ocean Pearl after we got her back to NZ. Listed her and one of the interested parties loved her but said she was too expensive. They found a cheap one in Panama and bought it. The wife contacted me a year later saying they would have saved a lot of money if they had bought Ocean Pearl. I was grateful because we came to our senses and still own Ocean Pearl. And will for the foreseeable future.
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl
On 20/07/2022 00:30 CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


One last comment on this thread. 

Opinion:
The lowest-priced Amel you can find advertised or through negotiation will be the most expensive.

The price you pay for a good Amel will be based on the model, the market, age, and the cost to refit the Amel into good condition. It is math rather than negotiation.  

I have some things that you can use on my website: https://preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/buying-amel.html Download a Sample Estimate Spreadsheet, or all 3 of them. Use a highly Amel-experienced broker. This is NOT someone who sold 4 Amels last year. The same thing applies to Surveyors.


Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School

720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, Jul 19, 2022 at 7:10 AM Martijn Bolt <martijnbolt@...> wrote:
Hi David, Thank you for re-opening my question via this thread with this long (and short) response.

To all: Thanks. These posts are very much clarifying and sometimes reaffirming things I thought already (more or less).
 
Besides chartering sailboats as much as we can we've been "web sailing" and thinking about our first boat for many years now. About two year ago I stumbled upon Amel and found out about the amazing features and design philosophy. Since then our focus shifted, from some of the brands left on our long list as mentioned above, to Amel exclusively. From what I have found they are, in many aspects, the best-fit for what we want and plan to do.

Surprising to see that a well maintained Amel remains its value and interesting to see how things like the current global market, Delos, COVID, boomers, (ketch) manufacturing, and other developments (currently) have their part in this. Great comments and good advice especially when I think about negotiations as a buyer. I don't enjoy negotiations so I'm glad to now understand the few excessive prices I saw are probably just outliers, as most Amels "a vendre" are just that: Reasonably priced, although overall somewhat higher priced than last year, often with little room for negotiation (depending on the outcome of a survey/pre-purchase consult ofcourse).

@Paul. I'm confused by your comment mentioning no SM's are for sale in Europe. Quite some SM's show(ed) up on my list of available Amels, starting early 2021. I'm looking at the maintained websites from brokers and have contacted some of them. They (even recently) mentioned the SM's can be viewed now or sometimes towards the end of the season. (You wrote SN, not SM, I assume that was a typo).

Thanks again,
Martijn



Trevor Lusty
 

Patrick and Danny,
                              With the exception of my initial visit to Amel at La Rochelle, and later having the lift pump and  injectors calibrated, I too did all my own maintenance.
The ship's log and the maintenance log were as thick as each other. 
The reference in my original post to the costs incurred running a SM ten years ago are copied and pasted below,

"I ran an Amel Super Maramu for eight years, it cost me E 440K to purchase, the annual costs were between US 40 to 50 thousand dollars."

Those figures, travel costs, marina, yard storage ,surveyor fees, annual insurance,  annual antifouling, bi annual battery replacement ,etc.
I was on the boat every year for between seven and twelve months at a time.
I would think like Danny, the actual mechanical and electrical cost to service and maintain an SM is probably S 10 -15K doing it yourself and depending what needs replacing in any particular season.
The real money saver is when you become full time live aboard. No flights, yard storage, lay up and recommissioning, etc.
The other valid point that I learnt over the years was, the boats that had regular crew changes had a conduit for accessing difficult to find parts which could be brought out in luggage. Saving  the boat owner a ton of customs hassle and financial cost.
It simply has to be more  expensive today buying a twenty plus year old boat rather than a three year old boat, then making it seaworthy, refitting,  learning the systems before you get into a regular groove of outgoings.
I think that we all owe it to anyone demonstrating a desire to live the dream, to encourage them at every turn, but where possible,  gently point out and inform, that it not a lifestyle for the faint hearted, nor anything like what some social media outlets would have us believe.
It can come with a hard cultural, personal relationship and often financial strain.
Having said all of that, I still miss it very much.
Best regards,
Trevor
Cork
Ireland