Topics

Masse negative leak


ngtnewington Newington
 

Back sailing and all well aboard Amelia here in the windy Cyclades.
Since launching a few days ago I have found that the “ Masse” leak to the bonding system lights up on the negative side.
So far I have checked
1. both WC Motors
2. All the fans
3. Fridge system water cooling pump

There are clearly many potential candidates but the most likely????
Bulge pump? Windlasses? 24v alternator? Electric furlers??

Any ideas as to the most likely candidates?

Nick
Amelia sailing towards Siros. Greece.
AML 54 -019


Paul Dowd and Sharon Brown
 

Nick,

On our boat when I connect a cable from my laptop headphone socket to the aux input on the stereo the negative mass lights up.

Cheers,
Paul
S/Y Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98 - Grenada

-----Original Message-----
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of ngtnewington Newington via groups.io
Sent: 21 July 2020 07:03
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Masse negative leak

Back sailing and all well aboard Amelia here in the windy Cyclades.
Since launching a few days ago I have found that the “ Masse” leak to the bonding system lights up on the negative side.
So far I have checked
1. both WC Motors
2. All the fans
3. Fridge system water cooling pump

There are clearly many potential candidates but the most likely????
Bulge pump? Windlasses? 24v alternator? Electric furlers??

Any ideas as to the most likely candidates?

Nick
Amelia sailing towards Siros. Greece.
AML 54 -019





--
Cheers
Paul
Ya Fohi - Amel 54 #98


Arno Luijten
 

Hi Nick,

Check the Anchor Winch(es). They are susceptible for these problem given their exposure to salt.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


ngtnewington Newington
 

Hi Paul,
I checked that just now, alas it is not the speaker jack.
But thanks
Nick
Amelia 54-019 in Siros


On 21 Jul 2020, at 14:51, Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:

Hi Nick,

Check the Anchor Winch(es). They are susceptible for these problem given their exposure to salt.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


ngtnewington Newington
 

Hi Arno, 
I checked to bowthruster, I took off the bonding wire but alas no problem there. Tomorrow I will have a check of the windlasses but I did not see a bonding (green/yellow) cable to them.
Anyhow it looks like this will take some time. 
I would have thought the most likely candidates are electric motors with carbon brushes. 

I am impressed by the Amel engineering In general but the bonding is very crude, stripped off cable hose clamped to pipe work does not really do it for me.

However “be to their virtues ever kind and their faults a little blind” comes to mind.

Nick
Amelia stern to in Finikas Siros whilst the Meltemi howls.
AML54-019

On 21 Jul 2020, at 18:25, NICK NEWINGTON <ngtnewington@...> wrote:

Hi Paul,
I checked that just now, alas it is not the speaker jack.
But thanks
Nick
Amelia 54-019 in Siros


On 21 Jul 2020, at 14:51, Arno Luijten <arno.luijten@...> wrote:

Hi Nick,

Check the Anchor Winch(es). They are susceptible for these problem given their exposure to salt.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


ofer magen
 

Hi Nick,
We had the same problem.
It took long time to solve , because the light was not always ON.

The way to find where  a bad contact between the minus and the grounding system is, is to start from the main switches near the batteries, disconnect each of the cables while checking the light. Ones you find a cable that if  disconnected the is OFF, look for the equipment down the cable and check the contacts and put corrosion x.
We found the problem in the forward locker . We had a leak of water from the new Bad! installed windlass rubber deck switches that created humidity on all electrical motors in the locker.

Good luck with the challenge.
You can call me if you want more info.



Ofer Magen
A 54 160 2010
Cyprus.
+972528795540


 

Ofer & Nick,

Remember, the minus Masse Light means there is a connection between 24-volts negative to the Amel bonding system. The most common issue is a Jabsco Macerator pump that has developed a leak at the seal, causing a connection to the Amel Bonding. Start by disconnecting the green/yellow wire from each macerator pump. If the light no longer comes ON, you have found it. Replace that macerator pump and reconnect the green/yellow wires.

If it was not the macerator pump and the light is ON for the (-) side, it is more difficult because the individual 24-volt breakers only turn OFF the positive side (+). For a negative side (-) Masse fault, you will need to disconnect the negative wires from the negative main battery switch. On most Amels, this is the lower switch. When the light goes out, you have narrowed your search to one main circuit.

If the (+) side is ON, try turning OFF each breaker throughout the boat one at a time. Don't forget breakers for the windlass, winches, and breakers in the engine room. Do this with all breakers.

I hope this helps you.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 12:32 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
We had the same problem.
It took long time to solve , because the light was not always ON.

The way to find where  a bad contact between the minus and the grounding system is, is to start from the main switches near the batteries, disconnect each of the cables while checking the light. Ones you find a cable that if  disconnected the is OFF, look for the equipment down the cable and check the contacts and put corrosion x.
We found the problem in the forward locker . We had a leak of water from the new Bad! installed windlass rubber deck switches that created humidity on all electrical motors in the locker.

Good luck with the challenge.
You can call me if you want more info.



Ofer Magen
A 54 160 2010
Cyprus.
+972528795540


ngtnewington Newington
 

Thanks Bill,

Alas it is not the Macerators. I hate working in the space for the main battery on/off as it is so easy to short out the positive to negative with a ratchet handle... maybe I can cover the positive with plastic sheet or something...
Nick 
Stern to in Finikas Syros waiting for the Meltemi to ease just a tad...
Amelia AML54-019


On 22 Jul 2020, at 00:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Ofer & Nick,

Remember, the minus Masse Light means there is a connection between 24-volts negative to the Amel bonding system. The most common issue is a Jabsco Macerator pump that has developed a leak at the seal, causing a connection to the Amel Bonding. Start by disconnecting the green/yellow wire from each macerator pump. If the light no longer comes ON, you have found it. Replace that macerator pump and reconnect the green/yellow wires.

If it was not the macerator pump and the light is ON for the (-) side, it is more difficult because the individual 24-volt breakers only turn OFF the positive side (+). For a negative side (-) Masse fault, you will need to disconnect the negative wires from the negative main battery switch. On most Amels, this is the lower switch. When the light goes out, you have narrowed your search to one main circuit.

If the (+) side is ON, try turning OFF each breaker throughout the boat one at a time. Don't forget breakers for the windlass, winches, and breakers in the engine room. Do this with all breakers.

I hope this helps you.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 12:32 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
We had the same problem.
It took long time to solve , because the light was not always ON.

The way to find where  a bad contact between the minus and the grounding system is, is to start from the main switches near the batteries, disconnect each of the cables while checking the light. Ones you find a cable that if  disconnected the is OFF, look for the equipment down the cable and check the contacts and put corrosion x.
We found the problem in the forward locker . We had a leak of water from the new Bad! installed windlass rubber deck switches that created humidity on all electrical motors in the locker.

Good luck with the challenge.
You can call me if you want more info.



Ofer Magen
A 54 160 2010
Cyprus.
+972528795540


 

Nick,

I did it by unbolting at least one of the main switches and pulling it aside. 

You can also remove the positive wire from the battery bank to the switch by unbolting it at the junction block inside the battery compartment and also remove the positive wire on the starter battery. An alternative in the battery bank which may be easier is to remove the positive wire from the battery post each of your 6 pairs of batteries (the one to the junction block).


Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 11:23 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Bill,

Alas it is not the Macerators. I hate working in the space for the main battery on/off as it is so easy to short out the positive to negative with a ratchet handle... maybe I can cover the positive with plastic sheet or something...
Nick 
Stern to in Finikas Syros waiting for the Meltemi to ease just a tad...
Amelia AML54-019


On 22 Jul 2020, at 00:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Ofer & Nick,

Remember, the minus Masse Light means there is a connection between 24-volts negative to the Amel bonding system. The most common issue is a Jabsco Macerator pump that has developed a leak at the seal, causing a connection to the Amel Bonding. Start by disconnecting the green/yellow wire from each macerator pump. If the light no longer comes ON, you have found it. Replace that macerator pump and reconnect the green/yellow wires.

If it was not the macerator pump and the light is ON for the (-) side, it is more difficult because the individual 24-volt breakers only turn OFF the positive side (+). For a negative side (-) Masse fault, you will need to disconnect the negative wires from the negative main battery switch. On most Amels, this is the lower switch. When the light goes out, you have narrowed your search to one main circuit.

If the (+) side is ON, try turning OFF each breaker throughout the boat one at a time. Don't forget breakers for the windlass, winches, and breakers in the engine room. Do this with all breakers.

I hope this helps you.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 12:32 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
We had the same problem.
It took long time to solve , because the light was not always ON.

The way to find where  a bad contact between the minus and the grounding system is, is to start from the main switches near the batteries, disconnect each of the cables while checking the light. Ones you find a cable that if  disconnected the is OFF, look for the equipment down the cable and check the contacts and put corrosion x.
We found the problem in the forward locker . We had a leak of water from the new Bad! installed windlass rubber deck switches that created humidity on all electrical motors in the locker.

Good luck with the challenge.
You can call me if you want more info.



Ofer Magen
A 54 160 2010
Cyprus.
+972528795540


ngtnewington Newington
 

I have been playing around at trying to identify the leak to no avail. So the next step will be as you suggest. I will disconnect the battery positive cables and the remove all the negative cables from the big switch and reconnect one by one to identify the circuit at fault.

Nick 
Amelia
AML54-0197


On 22 Jul 2020, at 17:46, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Nick,

I did it by unbolting at least one of the main switches and pulling it aside. 

You can also remove the positive wire from the battery bank to the switch by unbolting it at the junction block inside the battery compartment and also remove the positive wire on the starter battery. An alternative in the battery bank which may be easier is to remove the positive wire from the battery post each of your 6 pairs of batteries (the one to the junction block).


Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 11:23 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Bill,

Alas it is not the Macerators. I hate working in the space for the main battery on/off as it is so easy to short out the positive to negative with a ratchet handle... maybe I can cover the positive with plastic sheet or something...
Nick 
Stern to in Finikas Syros waiting for the Meltemi to ease just a tad...
Amelia AML54-019


On 22 Jul 2020, at 00:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Ofer & Nick,

Remember, the minus Masse Light means there is a connection between 24-volts negative to the Amel bonding system. The most common issue is a Jabsco Macerator pump that has developed a leak at the seal, causing a connection to the Amel Bonding. Start by disconnecting the green/yellow wire from each macerator pump. If the light no longer comes ON, you have found it. Replace that macerator pump and reconnect the green/yellow wires.

If it was not the macerator pump and the light is ON for the (-) side, it is more difficult because the individual 24-volt breakers only turn OFF the positive side (+). For a negative side (-) Masse fault, you will need to disconnect the negative wires from the negative main battery switch. On most Amels, this is the lower switch. When the light goes out, you have narrowed your search to one main circuit.

If the (+) side is ON, try turning OFF each breaker throughout the boat one at a time. Don't forget breakers for the windlass, winches, and breakers in the engine room. Do this with all breakers.

I hope this helps you.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 12:32 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
We had the same problem.
It took long time to solve , because the light was not always ON.

The way to find where  a bad contact between the minus and the grounding system is, is to start from the main switches near the batteries, disconnect each of the cables while checking the light. Ones you find a cable that if  disconnected the is OFF, look for the equipment down the cable and check the contacts and put corrosion x.
We found the problem in the forward locker . We had a leak of water from the new Bad! installed windlass rubber deck switches that created humidity on all electrical motors in the locker.

Good luck with the challenge.
You can call me if you want more info.



Ofer Magen
A 54 160 2010
Cyprus.
+972528795540


 

Good luck. Let me know how it goes. Sometimes the cause is evasive. I should have also said the most probable suspect after the macerator pumps is anything that you have added or changed AC or DC since the MASSE last reported no negative fault. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 12:09 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have been playing around at trying to identify the leak to no avail. So the next step will be as you suggest. I will disconnect the battery positive cables and the remove all the negative cables from the big switch and reconnect one by one to identify the circuit at fault.

Nick 
Amelia
AML54-0197


On 22 Jul 2020, at 17:46, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Nick,

I did it by unbolting at least one of the main switches and pulling it aside. 

You can also remove the positive wire from the battery bank to the switch by unbolting it at the junction block inside the battery compartment and also remove the positive wire on the starter battery. An alternative in the battery bank which may be easier is to remove the positive wire from the battery post each of your 6 pairs of batteries (the one to the junction block).


Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 11:23 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Bill,

Alas it is not the Macerators. I hate working in the space for the main battery on/off as it is so easy to short out the positive to negative with a ratchet handle... maybe I can cover the positive with plastic sheet or something...
Nick 
Stern to in Finikas Syros waiting for the Meltemi to ease just a tad...
Amelia AML54-019


On 22 Jul 2020, at 00:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Ofer & Nick,

Remember, the minus Masse Light means there is a connection between 24-volts negative to the Amel bonding system. The most common issue is a Jabsco Macerator pump that has developed a leak at the seal, causing a connection to the Amel Bonding. Start by disconnecting the green/yellow wire from each macerator pump. If the light no longer comes ON, you have found it. Replace that macerator pump and reconnect the green/yellow wires.

If it was not the macerator pump and the light is ON for the (-) side, it is more difficult because the individual 24-volt breakers only turn OFF the positive side (+). For a negative side (-) Masse fault, you will need to disconnect the negative wires from the negative main battery switch. On most Amels, this is the lower switch. When the light goes out, you have narrowed your search to one main circuit.

If the (+) side is ON, try turning OFF each breaker throughout the boat one at a time. Don't forget breakers for the windlass, winches, and breakers in the engine room. Do this with all breakers.

I hope this helps you.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 12:32 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
We had the same problem.
It took long time to solve , because the light was not always ON.

The way to find where  a bad contact between the minus and the grounding system is, is to start from the main switches near the batteries, disconnect each of the cables while checking the light. Ones you find a cable that if  disconnected the is OFF, look for the equipment down the cable and check the contacts and put corrosion x.
We found the problem in the forward locker . We had a leak of water from the new Bad! installed windlass rubber deck switches that created humidity on all electrical motors in the locker.

Good luck with the challenge.
You can call me if you want more info.



Ofer Magen
A 54 160 2010
Cyprus.
+972528795540


ngtnewington Newington
 

Hi Bill,
So I took off the negative cables from the master switch one by one and checked the Masse indicator. Fault turns out to be on the biggest cable which is 95mm square. This is the cable that runs to the bow locker plastic electric cupboard.
So great, I assumed that it must be the windlasses or the bowthruster. Trouble is that even if I  disconnect the 95mm sq cable that goes into the cupboard and then check the indicator, the light comes on...
I can only assume the problem is between the bow locker and the battery locker, but from my investigations it is a straight run in a conduit with nothing T’d off it.
Any ideas?
Nick
S/Y Amelia anchored Mikanos with the Meltemi cranking.
AML54-019



On 22 Jul 2020, at 20:29, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Good luck. Let me know how it goes. Sometimes the cause is evasive. I should have also said the most probable suspect after the macerator pumps is anything that you have added or changed AC or DC since the MASSE last reported no negative fault. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 12:09 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have been playing around at trying to identify the leak to no avail. So the next step will be as you suggest. I will disconnect the battery positive cables and the remove all the negative cables from the big switch and reconnect one by one to identify the circuit at fault.

Nick 
Amelia
AML54-0197


On 22 Jul 2020, at 17:46, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Nick,

I did it by unbolting at least one of the main switches and pulling it aside. 

You can also remove the positive wire from the battery bank to the switch by unbolting it at the junction block inside the battery compartment and also remove the positive wire on the starter battery. An alternative in the battery bank which may be easier is to remove the positive wire from the battery post each of your 6 pairs of batteries (the one to the junction block).


Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 11:23 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Bill,

Alas it is not the Macerators. I hate working in the space for the main battery on/off as it is so easy to short out the positive to negative with a ratchet handle... maybe I can cover the positive with plastic sheet or something...
Nick 
Stern to in Finikas Syros waiting for the Meltemi to ease just a tad...
Amelia AML54-019


On 22 Jul 2020, at 00:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Ofer & Nick,

Remember, the minus Masse Light means there is a connection between 24-volts negative to the Amel bonding system. The most common issue is a Jabsco Macerator pump that has developed a leak at the seal, causing a connection to the Amel Bonding. Start by disconnecting the green/yellow wire from each macerator pump. If the light no longer comes ON, you have found it. Replace that macerator pump and reconnect the green/yellow wires.

If it was not the macerator pump and the light is ON for the (-) side, it is more difficult because the individual 24-volt breakers only turn OFF the positive side (+). For a negative side (-) Masse fault, you will need to disconnect the negative wires from the negative main battery switch. On most Amels, this is the lower switch. When the light goes out, you have narrowed your search to one main circuit.

If the (+) side is ON, try turning OFF each breaker throughout the boat one at a time. Don't forget breakers for the windlass, winches, and breakers in the engine room. Do this with all breakers.

I hope this helps you.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 12:32 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
We had the same problem.
It took long time to solve , because the light was not always ON.

The way to find where  a bad contact between the minus and the grounding system is, is to start from the main switches near the batteries, disconnect each of the cables while checking the light. Ones you find a cable that if  disconnected the is OFF, look for the equipment down the cable and check the contacts and put corrosion x.
We found the problem in the forward locker . We had a leak of water from the new Bad! installed windlass rubber deck switches that created humidity on all electrical motors in the locker.

Good luck with the challenge.
You can call me if you want more info.



Ofer Magen
A 54 160 2010
Cyprus.
+972528795540


 

Nick,

I think I would need to be there to work through this. Sorry, working remotely with just text email makes it difficult to understand where you disconnected the 24-volt negative cable in the forward locker. But, see the circled wires in this photo. Did you remove all of them from the post?
image.png
CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 4:49 AM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill,
So I took off the negative cables from the master switch one by one and checked the Masse indicator. Fault turns out to be on the biggest cable which is 95mm square. This is the cable that runs to the bow locker plastic electric cupboard.
So great, I assumed that it must be the windlasses or the bowthruster. Trouble is that even if I  disconnect the 95mm sq cable that goes into the cupboard and then check the indicator, the light comes on...
I can only assume the problem is between the bow locker and the battery locker, but from my investigations it is a straight run in a conduit with nothing T’d off it.
Any ideas?
Nick
S/Y Amelia anchored Mikanos with the Meltemi cranking.
AML54-019



On 22 Jul 2020, at 20:29, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Good luck. Let me know how it goes. Sometimes the cause is evasive. I should have also said the most probable suspect after the macerator pumps is anything that you have added or changed AC or DC since the MASSE last reported no negative fault. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 12:09 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have been playing around at trying to identify the leak to no avail. So the next step will be as you suggest. I will disconnect the battery positive cables and the remove all the negative cables from the big switch and reconnect one by one to identify the circuit at fault.

Nick 
Amelia
AML54-0197


On 22 Jul 2020, at 17:46, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Nick,

I did it by unbolting at least one of the main switches and pulling it aside. 

You can also remove the positive wire from the battery bank to the switch by unbolting it at the junction block inside the battery compartment and also remove the positive wire on the starter battery. An alternative in the battery bank which may be easier is to remove the positive wire from the battery post each of your 6 pairs of batteries (the one to the junction block).


Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 11:23 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Bill,

Alas it is not the Macerators. I hate working in the space for the main battery on/off as it is so easy to short out the positive to negative with a ratchet handle... maybe I can cover the positive with plastic sheet or something...
Nick 
Stern to in Finikas Syros waiting for the Meltemi to ease just a tad...
Amelia AML54-019


On 22 Jul 2020, at 00:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Ofer & Nick,

Remember, the minus Masse Light means there is a connection between 24-volts negative to the Amel bonding system. The most common issue is a Jabsco Macerator pump that has developed a leak at the seal, causing a connection to the Amel Bonding. Start by disconnecting the green/yellow wire from each macerator pump. If the light no longer comes ON, you have found it. Replace that macerator pump and reconnect the green/yellow wires.

If it was not the macerator pump and the light is ON for the (-) side, it is more difficult because the individual 24-volt breakers only turn OFF the positive side (+). For a negative side (-) Masse fault, you will need to disconnect the negative wires from the negative main battery switch. On most Amels, this is the lower switch. When the light goes out, you have narrowed your search to one main circuit.

If the (+) side is ON, try turning OFF each breaker throughout the boat one at a time. Don't forget breakers for the windlass, winches, and breakers in the engine room. Do this with all breakers.

I hope this helps you.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 12:32 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
We had the same problem.
It took long time to solve , because the light was not always ON.

The way to find where  a bad contact between the minus and the grounding system is, is to start from the main switches near the batteries, disconnect each of the cables while checking the light. Ones you find a cable that if  disconnected the is OFF, look for the equipment down the cable and check the contacts and put corrosion x.
We found the problem in the forward locker . We had a leak of water from the new Bad! installed windlass rubber deck switches that created humidity on all electrical motors in the locker.

Good luck with the challenge.
You can call me if you want more info.



Ofer Magen
A 54 160 2010
Cyprus.
+972528795540


ngtnewington Newington
 

Yes I removed all of them from that post you circled.
Anyhow not to worry I will just have to work at it. On a positive note I snorkelled the anodes and they are not dissolving before my eyes...
Nick
Amelia anchored Mikanos (not my favourite Greek island)
AML 54-019


On 24 Jul 2020, at 16:38, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Nick,

I think I would need to be there to work through this. Sorry, working remotely with just text email makes it difficult to understand where you disconnected the 24-volt negative cable in the forward locker. But, see the circled wires in this photo. Did you remove all of them from the post?
<image.png>

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 4:49 AM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Bill,
So I took off the negative cables from the master switch one by one and checked the Masse indicator. Fault turns out to be on the biggest cable which is 95mm square. This is the cable that runs to the bow locker plastic electric cupboard.
So great, I assumed that it must be the windlasses or the bowthruster. Trouble is that even if I  disconnect the 95mm sq cable that goes into the cupboard and then check the indicator, the light comes on...
I can only assume the problem is between the bow locker and the battery locker, but from my investigations it is a straight run in a conduit with nothing T’d off it.
Any ideas?
Nick
S/Y Amelia anchored Mikanos with the Meltemi cranking.
AML54-019



On 22 Jul 2020, at 20:29, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Good luck. Let me know how it goes. Sometimes the cause is evasive. I should have also said the most probable suspect after the macerator pumps is anything that you have added or changed AC or DC since the MASSE last reported no negative fault. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 12:09 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have been playing around at trying to identify the leak to no avail. So the next step will be as you suggest. I will disconnect the battery positive cables and the remove all the negative cables from the big switch and reconnect one by one to identify the circuit at fault.

Nick 
Amelia
AML54-0197


On 22 Jul 2020, at 17:46, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Nick,

I did it by unbolting at least one of the main switches and pulling it aside. 

You can also remove the positive wire from the battery bank to the switch by unbolting it at the junction block inside the battery compartment and also remove the positive wire on the starter battery. An alternative in the battery bank which may be easier is to remove the positive wire from the battery post each of your 6 pairs of batteries (the one to the junction block).


Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Tue, Jul 21, 2020, 11:23 PM ngtnewington Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thanks Bill,

Alas it is not the Macerators. I hate working in the space for the main battery on/off as it is so easy to short out the positive to negative with a ratchet handle... maybe I can cover the positive with plastic sheet or something...
Nick 
Stern to in Finikas Syros waiting for the Meltemi to ease just a tad...
Amelia AML54-019


On 22 Jul 2020, at 00:43, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Ofer & Nick,

Remember, the minus Masse Light means there is a connection between 24-volts negative to the Amel bonding system. The most common issue is a Jabsco Macerator pump that has developed a leak at the seal, causing a connection to the Amel Bonding. Start by disconnecting the green/yellow wire from each macerator pump. If the light no longer comes ON, you have found it. Replace that macerator pump and reconnect the green/yellow wires.

If it was not the macerator pump and the light is ON for the (-) side, it is more difficult because the individual 24-volt breakers only turn OFF the positive side (+). For a negative side (-) Masse fault, you will need to disconnect the negative wires from the negative main battery switch. On most Amels, this is the lower switch. When the light goes out, you have narrowed your search to one main circuit.

If the (+) side is ON, try turning OFF each breaker throughout the boat one at a time. Don't forget breakers for the windlass, winches, and breakers in the engine room. Do this with all breakers.

I hope this helps you.

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
Address: 720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
View My Training Calendar


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 12:32 PM ofer magen <ofermagen@...> wrote:
Hi Nick,
We had the same problem.
It took long time to solve , because the light was not always ON.

The way to find where  a bad contact between the minus and the grounding system is, is to start from the main switches near the batteries, disconnect each of the cables while checking the light. Ones you find a cable that if  disconnected the is OFF, look for the equipment down the cable and check the contacts and put corrosion x.
We found the problem in the forward locker . We had a leak of water from the new Bad! installed windlass rubber deck switches that created humidity on all electrical motors in the locker.

Good luck with the challenge.
You can call me if you want more info.



Ofer Magen
A 54 160 2010
Cyprus.
+972528795540


Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL <sv_sangaris@...>
 

Hi Nick,
Bill's comment that these problems can be elusive and your saying it is a straight run in a conduit reminded me of a problem in SM Miss Lindy years ago. They had had near-fire meltdowns of all the major wires in the engine room (looked like Dali's clocks dripping). Three times over just a few months!

Each time they had "professional marine electricians" replace all the damaged wires. After rewire #3 in Cartagena, we happened to be leaving the same day and they had meltdown #4. We got them to anchor near us in the San Blas and I spent 3 days cobbling their system back together. I finished, but noticed a slight potential between the start negative and the engine block. Scratching my head and thinking I was wasting my time, I disconnected the battery wires and pulled them out of the conduit a few feet. Sure enough, there was a slight chafe-through in the insulation that under the right conditions underway would allow a dead short.

Obviously just a shot in the dark and unlikely to be the cause, but maybe worth pulling and inspecting the wires in the conduit.

Good luck with it,
Craig


Sv Garulfo
 

Nick,

Remember that there may be more than one source for the leak. In that unfortunate case, you would not find the leak by disconnecting a faulty circuit since another faulty circuit will still show the leak in the tester. 
The laborious but absolute process is to disconnect all but one circuit to validate that circuit is ok. Until you find one that is faulty. Fix the issue and move to the next one. Until you’ve done them all. It can be a lot of work. 
It makes sense to start from the battery bank (the tree root) and find the faulty branch(es) up to the faulty equipment(s). 

To make things easier, you can build a portable tester with an Led bulb and 2 wires long enough to connect to the bonding system (closest available spot to the connection you are working on, could be the rigging/rail depending on your 54 hull number) and the battery positive (when searching for a negative leak). That battery positive would be very close to where you’re working since you’re only disconnecting negative cables. That way you can test directly the existence of the leak. 
The led bulb will also be more sensitive to the strength of the leak than the built in tester. 

When we went through that exercise on Garulfo, we found 2 leaks in the forward locker: navigation lights; the negative wire was chafed and allowed a connection to the handrail tube it went through, and bow thruster; probably some carbon dust as the leak was weak and intermittent. 

Hope that will help, 

Good luck,

Thomas
GARULFO 
A54-122
Tahiti 



On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 08:02, Craig & Katherine Briggs SN 68 Sangaris Tropic Isle Harbor, FL via groups.io <sv_sangaris=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hi Nick,
Bill's comment that these problems can be elusive and your saying it is a straight run in a conduit reminded me of a problem in SM Miss Lindy years ago. They had had near-fire meltdowns of all the major wires in the engine room (looked like Dali's clocks dripping). Three times over just a few months!

Each time they had "professional marine electricians" replace all the damaged wires. After rewire #3 in Cartagena, we happened to be leaving the same day and they had meltdown #4. We got them to anchor near us in the San Blas and I spent 3 days cobbling their system back together. I finished, but noticed a slight potential between the start negative and the engine block. Scratching my head and thinking I was wasting my time, I disconnected the battery wires and pulled them out of the conduit a few feet. Sure enough, there was a slight chafe-through in the insulation that under the right conditions underway would allow a dead short.

Obviously just a shot in the dark and unlikely to be the cause, but maybe worth pulling and inspecting the wires in the conduit.

Good luck with it,
Craig


Lior Keydar
 

Dear Nick 

I had also electrical leak that came from the bow thruster. It came, like Thomas wrote, from the carbon dust. I opened the cover of the bow thruster, cleaned it with a small clean painting brush and it solved the problem. 

Best
Lior A54 #18


ngtnewington Newington
 

Thanks everyone for your advice. I am anchored of Mikanos and it is cranking up to 40kn. My spade anchor is holding but I am reluctant to start taking cables off the battery switch. However I have made a thick plastic insulator cover that I have taped over the positive cables terminals to the red handle switch. So I can now work safely in the compartment.
We plan to sail for Patmos tomorrow where the Meltemi tends to blow with less ferocity.
I shall track it all down and post the results, but I have a feeling it will take time unless I get lucky.
Nick
S/Y Amelia
AML54-019 Greece

On 25 Jul 2020, at 17:07, Lior Keydar <lior246@...> wrote:

Dear Nick 

I had also electrical leak that came from the bow thruster. It came, like Thomas wrote, from the carbon dust. I opened the cover of the bow thruster, cleaned it with a small clean painting brush and it solved the problem. 

Best
Lior A54 #18