Topics

New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)


Scott SV Tengah
 

This is a new thread to continue the overly long thread at:

https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/topic/a54_fridge_circulation_pump/34255404?p=Created,,,20,1,60,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,34255404&jump=1
___________________

OLIVER - can you post the video of your fridge pump installation? Also, it seems your link is for a 10mm shaft motor. Can you verify it's the same link you ordered your 8mm shaft motor from?
_____

Jamie, good thing you mentioned to me that the shaft on the pump Oliver linked was 10mm. I asked the AliExpress seller if he has the exact same motor with an 8mm shaft. Perhaps Oliver posted the wrong link or perhaps they changed the spec on the motor. Hope Oliver sees and responds to this.

This is mindblowingly annoying - I am fine paying to get a solution as I'm now a bit nervous about leaving the boat for more than a day in case the pump dies and all my frozen food goes to waste! 

I emailed my contact at March Pumps to determine the shaft spec on their centrifugal pump motors to see if we can cannibalize the brushless motor part to use with the flojet pump head. I was in conversation with him prior about using their 12v 893-07 pump, but he stated that it's probably not a good idea since I cannot guarantee constant prime. This is the case with my freshwater system but he even said it's the case with a SW system due to boat movement.

Here's what he said prior when I suggested using the full March 893-07 pump:

"The setup you have there wouldn’t make our pumps very happy. My concern would be that first pump in the line right there at the “Y” split…..when that turns on it may siphon water backwards out of our pump and suck it dry….you could install a check valve on the outlet side of the pump but it would have to have a very small pop open pressure as the 893-07 will only generate about 4.5psi when its dead headed at 0 flow.

 

If the setup is mounted all below the waterline then the lines should prime with water naturally and you shouldn’t have to prime them…if the pump would be above the water line then a check valve would need to be installed to help keep it primed. The initial prime you would have to get creative in doing so….a lot of people will install another “T” with a valve and a fitting to hook up a garden hose….you they can open the valve and turn on the hose until its all filled up and turn the valve off then unhook the hose.

The flo-jet pump I believe are all rubber vein impellers and are self priming so they are different then our pumps and wouldn’t be a direct swap over between the two."


The first pump he mentions is the domestic FW pump. His check valve/T valve solution adds complexity, which I dislike, but if it is our only potential solution then we might have no other choice. If we have 5 more years of sailing, it's insane for me to carry 10 Flojet pumps as backup.


Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Jamie Wendell
 

Robert Giroux posted this link. Seems we can get a shaft adapter that should do the job.

Any of these fit your application? https://www.amazon.com/s?k=8mm+to+10mm+Bore+Stainless+Steel+coupling&

Knowing that I can now go from 10mm to 8mm with this coupling, I am going to start my "experiment" to see if I can get Oliver's brushless motor solution to work.
I will post my success or failure soon - fingers crossed.

Until then, let's hope we can keep our "cool" with the Flojet pumps........even if we have to carry some spares. I just ordered 3 more.
Jamie
Phantom A54 #44


Germain Jean-Pierre
 

Hello Jamie,

I did not check their website but they may have something which fits your needs

Marco Pumps. Well made in Italy. 

GL in your experiment 

Jean-Pierre Germain, SY Eleuthera, SM007.


On 28/06/2020, at 1:59 PM, Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:

Robert Giroux posted this link. Seems we can get a shaft adapter that should do the job.

Any of these fit your application? https://www.amazon.com/s?k=8mm+to+10mm+Bore+Stainless+Steel+coupling&

Knowing that I can now go from 10mm to 8mm with this coupling, I am going to start my "experiment" to see if I can get Oliver's brushless motor solution to work.
I will post my success or failure soon - fingers crossed.

Until then, let's hope we can keep our "cool" with the Flojet pumps........even if we have to carry some spares. I just ordered 3 more.
Jamie
Phantom A54 #44


Scott SV Tengah
 

Unfortunately Marco has been tried. I have purchased one and so did Thomas on Garulfo (A54). I believe it lasted him less than 3 months and was noisy as hell. He spoke to their engineers and they agreed it's not an effective solution.

Oliver responded to me via email and apparently the brushless motor he used prior eliminated the brush wear problem but then the cheap bearing failed! He is working on a plug and play solution using a more robust pump.

I am also in contact with March Pumps to see if we can find a brushless motor from them that will somehow fit in the Flojet pump head. The huge advantage with the Flojet is that it's quiet and replacement diaphragms are cheap, if/when they fail. 

Jamie - please try to figure out the adapter though. If we can get a 4mm round shaft to work with the Flojet 8mm pump head D-shaped shaft input, we can use a proven March Pump.
--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Jamie Wendell
 

I can echo Scott's comment about the noise generated by the Marco pumps. I use one for transferring diesel fuel in the boat and while it is very good, it is very loud, likely because of the gear-driven pump setup.
I did not know the March pump with a brushless motor was 4mm. Mating that to the 8mm Flojet diaphragm might be a challenge, but I am sure there are adapters out there. Since that motor is already functional without adapters and programming, etc. I think it would be worth a shot if I can locate one for sale. So far, I have not seen any for sale, except maybe through the manufacturer.

There are actually several March pumps that use a brushless DC motor (12 and 24V). Given its higher capacity (and presumably more powerful motor), I was looking at:

BC-2CP-MD 24V DC Brushless Mag Drive Pump

I am currently without any refrigeration while I wait for my new Flojets - all my others have died and I am tired of trips into the engine room with a hammer. I will report as I start trying to get the VESC motor to work.
Stay tuned?
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Teun BAAS
 

Jamie,

 

Transferring diesel below: from shore and/or other boat to your fuel tank?

 

Best Regards Teun

AMELIT A54 #128

June 29, 2020 15:01:12

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jamie Wendell via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 14:56
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

 

I can echo Scott's comment about the noise generated by the Marco pumps. I use one for transferring diesel fuel in the boat and while it is very good, it is very loud, likely because of the gear-driven pump setup.
I did not know the March pump with a brushless motor was 4mm. Mating that to the 8mm Flojet diaphragm might be a challenge, but I am sure there are adapters out there. Since that motor is already functional without adapters and programming, etc. I think it would be worth a shot if I can locate one for sale. So far, I have not seen any for sale, except maybe through the manufacturer.

There are actually several March pumps that use a brushless DC motor (12 and 24V). Given its higher capacity (and presumably more powerful motor), I was looking at:

BC-2CP-MD 24V DC Brushless Mag Drive Pump

I am currently without any refrigeration while I wait for my new Flojets - all my others have died and I am tired of trips into the engine room with a hammer. I will report as I start trying to get the VESC motor to work.
Stay tuned?
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Jamie Wendell
 

I installed a bi-directional Marco pump in the starboard locker (along with fuel supply connections) so that I could transfer fuel into and out of 20-liter yellow jerry cans. I also have a bladder tank I mount on the aft deck for long passages. I can transfer into and out of it as well.
If anyone is interested I could take a photo or try to draw a diagram. It works very well, and is far, far better than lifting the jugs and pouring them into the tank spout.

By the way, the brushless March pump I am considering "cannibalizing" for the refrigerator pump is attached in a pdf file. We would want only the motor and not the pump, since the pump is centrifugal, and would likely be a problem in the refrigerator service as the boat bounces around, although we could certainly try it.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Teun BAAS
 

Hi Jamie,

 

Thanks for reply.

 

Have you ever been in a situation you needed more than 700 to 800 liter? We have 900 liter capacity on board but you don’t want to run very low and keep 150/200 liter in the tank and so, I assume, maybe 5 cans on the railing?

 

Best Regards Teun

AMELIT A54 #128

June 29, 2020 15:40:25

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jamie Wendell via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 15:14
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

 

I installed a bi-directional Marco pump in the starboard locker (along with fuel supply connections) so that I could transfer fuel into and out of 20-liter yellow jerry cans. I also have a bladder tank I mount on the aft deck for long passages. I can transfer into and out of it as well.
If anyone is interested I could take a photo or try to draw a diagram. It works very well, and is far, far better than lifting the jugs and pouring them into the tank spout.

By the way, the brushless March pump I am considering "cannibalizing" for the refrigerator pump is attached in a pdf file. We would want only the motor and not the pump, since the pump is centrifugal, and would likely be a problem in the refrigerator service as the boat bounces around, although we could certainly try it.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Ruslan Osmonov
 

Hi, for fuel transfer I recently discovered siphon hoses with shaker primer. Very easy to transfer from jerry can, fast and the most important, you don’t have to lift and pour and wait for it. Not much to break either 🙂 
So far it’s been great. 

This is an example of what I’m talking about. 


On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:14 PM Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:
I installed a bi-directional Marco pump in the starboard locker (along with fuel supply connections) so that I could transfer fuel into and out of 20-liter yellow jerry cans. I also have a bladder tank I mount on the aft deck for long passages. I can transfer into and out of it as well.
If anyone is interested I could take a photo or try to draw a diagram. It works very well, and is far, far better than lifting the jugs and pouring them into the tank spout.

By the way, the brushless March pump I am considering "cannibalizing" for the refrigerator pump is attached in a pdf file. We would want only the motor and not the pump, since the pump is centrifugal, and would likely be a problem in the refrigerator service as the boat bounces around, although we could certainly try it.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

--


Teun BAAS
 

Hi Ruslan,

 

Yeah – I have been looking at that; there is also one which does 7 gallons per minute.

 

Thanks

 

Best Regards Teun

AMELIT A54 #128

June 29, 2020 16:18:21

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ruslan Osmonov via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 15:57
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

 

Hi, for fuel transfer I recently discovered siphon hoses with shaker primer. Very easy to transfer from jerry can, fast and the most important, you don’t have to lift and pour and wait for it. Not much to break either 🙂 

So far it’s been great. 

 

This is an example of what I’m talking about. 

 

 

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 4:14 PM Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:

I installed a bi-directional Marco pump in the starboard locker (along with fuel supply connections) so that I could transfer fuel into and out of 20-liter yellow jerry cans. I also have a bladder tank I mount on the aft deck for long passages. I can transfer into and out of it as well.
If anyone is interested I could take a photo or try to draw a diagram. It works very well, and is far, far better than lifting the jugs and pouring them into the tank spout.

By the way, the brushless March pump I am considering "cannibalizing" for the refrigerator pump is attached in a pdf file. We would want only the motor and not the pump, since the pump is centrifugal, and would likely be a problem in the refrigerator service as the boat bounces around, although we could certainly try it.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44

--


Jamie Wendell
 

Teun, when I do long crossings, I like to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible. As such, I often motor-sail if the wind is not just right. Yes, I carry 900 liters in the tank, but having extra is always a good thing, as I have used almost 900 liters before in one trip.
I can carry an extra 200 liters in jerry cans and/or 200 liters in my bladder tank if needed.
You never can have too much fuel?


Jamie Wendell
 

Teun, not to hijack this thread, which is about the infernal refrigerator pump problems we have all been having, I should point out that I had to replace my Volvo Penta engine a couple of years ago.
Since the new D3 engines have identical footprints (just different tuning), I upgraded from the D3-110 to the D3-150. It uses more fuel at the same RPM, so I tend to burn more fuel than I did before.
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Teun BAAS
 

Jamie,

 

In May 2018 I also replaced my D3-110C. But after getting the strong advise from AMEL withstood, reluctantly, the tremendous temptation to also go for the D3-150H as it was only a chip and for the same price. So now I have the D3-110H

 

I assume you have now the D3-150H; how is that working out. Not to mess up this thread pls Email me @: teun@...

 

Best Regards Teun

AMELIT A54 #128

June 29, 2020 17:07:45

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jamie Wendell via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 16:47
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] New Thread on A54 fridge pumps (ATTN: OLIVER Vela Nautica)

 

Teun, not to hijack this thread, which is about the infernal refrigerator pump problems we have all been having, I should point out that I had to replace my Volvo Penta engine a couple of years ago.
Since the new D3 engines have identical footprints (just different tuning), I upgraded from the D3-110 to the D3-150. It uses more fuel at the same RPM, so I tend to burn more fuel than I did before.
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Jamie Wendell
 

The new engine has been excellent after 1300 hours or so. Very happy I went with the 150i, although the 110i would probably be just fine as well.

I am certain that Amel is acting with an abundance of caution, as the gearbox (and maybe the C-Drive) is not technically rated for the higher power engine. I am ALWAYS very cautious and never throttle the engine too fast or exceed 2000 rpm - no need to really, since the power curve for the D3-110 and D3-150 are identical up to about 1750 rpm. Above that is when the extra power kicks in.

Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Scott SV Tengah
 

To help redirect this thread back to the topic :) :

March Pumps responded and their shafts are round and either

1/4 inch = 6.35mm
3/8 inch = 9.525mm

We just need to find an adapter that can take a round imperial shaft size and make it a metric 8mm D-shaped shaft size!

Another question to ponder: the shaft will rotate millions or billions of times. The alignment should therefore be perfect, right? Is that too much to ask of an adapter?

Also, let's try to find motors that meet the flow spec and use as little energy as possible. Veco specs that we need about 4 liters / 1 gal per minute. The current flojet uses around 26-40w, so I am hoping we can get a replacement that doesn't use a lot more than that.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Jamie Wendell
 

Well, to add more pain to this refrigerator pump problem, I just received my latest Flojet 4404-143 pump. It is a 12 volt pump.

I recall others confirming that the voltage output from the Frigoboat system pump interface was 12 volts. It is actually 24 volts - I measured it directly.

The 12 volt pump does not work, so I am back to the ice routine. I will have to order a 24 volt pump. Anyone need a 12 volt version?

Frustrated beyond all comprehension............
Jamie
Phantom, A54 #44


Jamie Wendell
 

Correction: 4405-143A


Scott SV Tengah
 

Jamie - 343 is the suffix you need. 

Possible alternate solution: I was explicitly told by Penguin UK that the 4105-343 24v pump was tested by Frigoboat UK for continuous use as long as it was fed 12v as it would run much slower and therefore not heat up nearly as much. They told me the Frigoboat interface feeds 12v to the pump. You are certain it feeds 24v to the pump?

From my understanding, brush wear above a certain temp is exponential, so that would make sense that the 4105-343 is dying prematurely if the pump is running at 24v.

Is a solution therefore to get a voltage divider and continue to run the 4105-343??


On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 3:04 AM Jamie Wendell <mysticshadow54@...> wrote:
Correction: 4405-143A


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Scott SV Tengah
 

I just tested - you are right Jamie! The frigoboat interface outputs 24v (actually around 26.5 on my boat) to the pump!
 
I replaced the compressor a while back and had concerns because the Hella relay that came with the compressor was 12v. I mentioned this to Penguin and also asked about the pump because if you look up the part number for the Flojet 4105-343, it clearly states intermittent duty.

Below is the email I received from Penguin UK regarding the relay and pumps:

"Hi Scott,

 

The 12V relays are supplied as standard with the compressors. If the boat is 24V you need to use the pump interface – see wiring diagram attached.

Pump is also correct, we source them direct from the manufacturer in the UK which is why they have different branding, (it is a 24V pump that is run at 12V through the pump interface, which means it is then OK for continuous duty  (This is the only pump we supply for the Frigoboat systems)."

Engineers out there: I am not exactly sure where the 12v Hella relay fits into all of this, but my rudimentary understanding of wiring diagrams indicates that the compressors are getting 24v, so why am I using a 12v Hella relay??

The wiring diagram they reference is attached. Regarding the pump, it seems the common knowledge on the Amel forum (based on errant info from the manufacturer) is that the E51385 Pump Interface divides our 24v house system to 12v for the pump output. This is necessary, if what Penguin says about using 24v pumps on 12v is true. It seems we've all been wrong about this all along and the pump is getting 24v, hence is possibly why its dying so quickly.

Thoughts?


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Arno Luijten
 

Hi Jamie,

I’m surprised you measure 24 volt. When I did the same I measured exactly half the voltage of the 24 volt system (about 13 volts when you are on shore power).
Did you measure under load? The whole Frigoboat system is made up in such a way it does not matter if your ships system is 12 or 24 volt. The compressor also reduces the actual supply voltage of the compressor motor to 12 volt irrespectively of the power-supply.

I recommend you check it once more. Maybe use a lightbulb to make up some load. If you still measure 24 Volt your switchbox may be broken, also explaining you extreme short lifespan of the pump. 

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121