Topics

Offshore Health Insurance


drew.gaffney@...
 

Will,

This is an incredibly complicated question.  I am not a tax or insurance advisor, but have been a physician for a long time, am a cruiser, and a US Citizen but also an EU resident.  Below are observations I've made professionally and while cruising.  It's such a complicated question, that everyone must eventually investigate and then decide what best suits their situation. 

I assume you’re a US citizen AND not officially a resident of foreign country.  I don’t know how old you are.  There are several things to consider. 

Every year, I see cruisers who develop unexpected medical problems.  I've had them myself.  A cruising friend developed a collapsed lung near Somoa.  He required emergent transport by ship to Apia-a very expensive trip.  In Apia, he received life-saving treatment, but couldn't leave there as ANZ refused boarding even when he met their demands.  He almost died but was eventually medevac'd via private air ambulance for almost $100K.  Most air ambulance companies will not transport without being relatively sure that they'll be paid.

Medicare does NOT cover anything overseas, including MedEvac.  If you get sick abroad and have MediCare, it would make sense to go back to the US or its territories.   To make matters worse, even though MediCare doesn't cover non-US care, you may still be required to pay part A MediCare payments if you're close to age 66.  Medical care, as Bill notes, will be much less expensive abroad, but may or may not be comparable.  AU, NZ, SGP, KUL, BKK, ZA, HKG, and some places in India, have really good care; in many places, it can be scary. 

Since you have little control over where you'll need care, coverage is preferable even if  you're healthy.

Some US carriers provide international coverage, others don't.   My employee BCBS did, but our  UHC policy did not. 

You also need to consider the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA).  It requires  most US citizens to have health insurance or pay a penalty, starting modestly in 2014 and increasing in subsequent years.  If you are a resident of a foreign country (meet the IRS test for a foreign tax home), then you are exempt from the PPACA.  Check with a tax advisor or the IRS.  If you live in a state with ObamaCare, you might look into coverage with an exchange; coverage and price vary greatly;  not available in most 'Red' states.  A high deductable exchange plan and MedEvac insurance might be a good package.

An alternative is to get MedEvac insurance only for a few hundred $'s annually.  That way, you could get back to the US if you have US coverage, or somewhere competent and cheaper than the US if not.

Most EU and 1st world countries have coverage available for their residents (don't necessarily have to be a citizen-it's complicated and varies by country.)  If you're cruising, then in-country coverage typically won't cover you.  Most of my EU colleagues have some type of coverage.

Sorry this is so complicated.  It's bad in the US, but worse for Americans abroad.  Good luck.

Drew

SY Revelation SM390

Chaguaramas, TT 


tango708@...
 

 

Bill & Judy, Chris, Anna-Sofie, Sharon and Drew,

 

Thank you very much for your helpful information. 

 

Our situation is that we are United States citizens.  I am 67 and my wife is 53.  I have medical coverage through the VA, which in my area (Seattle) is excellent.  It is my wife, who has had some health issues, that is in need of some sort of coverage. 

 

So I think we are going to access care abroad and pay as we go… when we need to we can and fly home for non-emergency care.   I think we will also purchase a catastrophic policy for Rebecca.  Obama Care can be accessed if we need to once we are back in the states.

 

I have been hospitalized in village hospitals in India twice with typhoid.  Both times I received excellent care (although I had to share my room with a gecko).  The doctors were excellent and the care was very inexpensive… $120 including meds for a 4-day hospital stay!

 

What may be of interest to others is that we have discovered that our Good Sam membership offers a program called Travel Assist.  A 15-month policy is only $79.00 for a couple.   Travel Assist provides flights home from anywhere in the world for a medical emergency or accident.  You do not have to be a RV owner to be a member of Good Sam and purchase their Travel Assist policy.   We have found our membership to be a very good investment and it covers our RV and both of our cars for towing or other roadside emergencies. 

 

Again, thank you all for responding.  Your views were very helpful while we consider our options.

 

Regards,

Will and Rebecca

SM180

 

 


Naomi Tabata <naomitabata@...>
 

Hi Will,

 

Absolutely agree with a previous note that it depends on your situation and level of comfort. For our three year cruise, we chose to use DAN (diversalertnetwork.org), which has a plan that provides emergency transportation to the nearest facility where you can receive excellent care. That may not be your home country. They do not pay for the care when you get there, and they will not pay to return you to your boat after treatment. You do not need to be a diver to purchase coverage. However, the annual premium is very reasonable, and we felt it was wonderful peace of mind in the event of a major incident/accident. We are relatively young and healthy, and were travelling in the south pacific where health care costs were minimal (e.g. USD$12 for a gastro scope in the Marshall Islands). Most importantly, we know of people who were very well taken care of by this company when they had a need to call on their services.

 

Cheers,
Naomi


karkauai
 

Hi all,
I'm looking at health insurance for myself again. I've been basically self-insuring for overseas care and have DAN Boaters insurance for emergency medical  repatriation. Iris has GeoBlue plus DAN.

Depending on deductible and copay, I'm looking at $ 7-8K premium, plus $3-10K deductible and $0-5K copay every year. That's a lot of money to pay when the only thing I could imagine costing that much overseas would be emergency surgery. Anything else and we would fly home to let Medicare pay for it.

I'd be interested to know what everyone else is doing.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Kent&Iris
Kristy
SM 243
Hoping to sail S again in Nov depending on COVID rules in Caribbean and beyond.


Matt Salatino
 

We used Travelex, much less expensive, includes medivac and flight insurance. We also depend on Medicare in the US.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Oct 15, 2020, at 9:48 PM, karkauai via groups.io <karkauai@...> wrote:

Hi all,
I'm looking at health insurance for myself again. I've been basically self-insuring for overseas care and have DAN Boaters insurance for emergency medical  repatriation. Iris has GeoBlue plus DAN.

Depending on deductible and copay, I'm looking at $ 7-8K premium, plus $3-10K deductible and $0-5K copay every year. That's a lot of money to pay when the only thing I could imagine costing that much overseas would be emergency surgery. Anything else and we would fly home to let Medicare pay for it.

I'd be interested to know what everyone else is doing.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Kent&Iris
Kristy
SM 243
Hoping to sail S again in Nov depending on COVID rules in Caribbean and beyond.


Craig Briggs
 

Hey Kent,
Know you're the Doc, but my Medicare Part C plan let's me get reimbursed for overseas care (yes, I've got to pay first and then submit for reimbursement, and it can't exceed "normal and customary" which is a rarity in other countries). Just a thought. Yes, US health care is WAY too complicated. I think I read that overhead costs - insurance companies and government - are much more than the actual health care itself. Glad you're a real Doctor, but you'd have an Amel 60 or maybe two if you had gone into health insurance!
Cheers, Craig
--
SN68 Sangaris, Tropic Isle Harbor, FL


Thomas Peacock
 

Boy, Kent, you’ve opened up a can of worms, that fortunately non-Americans may not have to deal with.

I don’t know if you have “traditional” Medicare, or the other privately administered plans. I’m not sure how “traditional” Medicare handles overseas illnesses.

However, as Craig pointed out, if you have Part C (so-called Medicare Advantage), privately administered, overseas illnesses are generally paid for. All plans differ. My plan, Aetna Silver PPO, has a $7,550 out of pocket maximum for the year. So, if I were to get ill or injured overseas, I would have to pay the bill. Since it is “out of network”, it is likely that I would be responsible for the first $7,550. In addition, I would have to pay the hospital and doctors myself for the whole bill. However, Aetna would reimburse me for any expenses over the $7,550. 

When I crunched the numbers last year, it did not seem worth it to me to buy overseas insurance. Worst case scenario, I’m out $7,550. The premiums for extra insurance seemed too steep.

I should add that my wife broke her arm in St Lucia. We chose to go a private hospital rather than the government run facility. The hospital bill was over $12,000. They would not admit her to the hospital until I paid in full (credit card). They wouldn’t even take an X-ray until I paid for that. After the deductible, her insurance paid the balance. 

Hope this helps.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay for the winter, public health issues in the Caribbean just seem too iffy, especially with the second wave upon us


On Oct 15, 2020, at 9:48 PM, karkauai via groups.io <karkauai@...> wrote:

Hi all,
I'm looking at health insurance for myself again. I've been basically self-insuring for overseas care and have DAN Boaters insurance for emergency medical  repatriation. Iris has GeoBlue plus DAN.

Depending on deductible and copay, I'm looking at $ 7-8K premium, plus $3-10K deductible and $0-5K copay every year. That's a lot of money to pay when the only thing I could imagine costing that much overseas would be emergency surgery. Anything else and we would fly home to let Medicare pay for it.

I'd be interested to know what everyone else is doing.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Kent&Iris
Kristy
SM 243
Hoping to sail S again in Nov depending on COVID rules in Caribbean and beyond.


--
Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


Mark Erdos
 

Kent,

 

I think you mentioned in the past you use Growie Insurance and their Jack-line policy. Check with them for offshore medical plans. If I recall correctly they represent IMG.

 

There are many options available for international healthcare. We tend to shop outside of the USA for international insurance since the policies are much easier to understand and cost a lot less. Our international policy is more for catastrophic stuff and has a high deductable. We pay out of pocket for most healthcare. We have found outside of the USA, good affordable healthcare is readily available in most countries and is about 1/5th the price of care in the USA. The price for our $2M policy is about $1800 per year for both of us. The deductable is US$5,000 each.

As an added thought – I do not limit myself to the USA should I need major treatment. There are countries in the world with very advanced healthcare systems who can provide services compatible with or much better than USA Medicare or private insurance options. For example, the biggest boom in Panama is travel-healthcare. Singapore, Thailand, UAE, Malaysia, and even India have JCI accredited hospitals. Many of these hospitals have better ratings than those in the USA, especially in their areas of expertise.

 

I think I deserve a cookie for restraining myself from going on a rant about the state of the USA healthcare system – {smile}

 

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

 

Skipper

Sailing Vessel - Cream Puff - SM2K - #275

Currently cruising - Tahiti, French Polynesia

www.creampuff.us

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 3:49 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Offshore Health Insurance

 

Hi all,
I'm looking at health insurance for myself again. I've been basically self-insuring for overseas care and have DAN Boaters insurance for emergency medical  repatriation. Iris has GeoBlue plus DAN.

Depending on deductible and copay, I'm looking at $ 7-8K premium, plus $3-10K deductible and $0-5K copay every year. That's a lot of money to pay when the only thing I could imagine costing that much overseas would be emergency surgery. Anything else and we would fly home to let Medicare pay for it.

I'd be interested to know what everyone else is doing.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Kent&Iris
Kristy
SM 243
Hoping to sail S again in Nov depending on COVID rules in Caribbean and beyond.


eric freedman
 

HI,

I just got off the phone with AARP. I have plan F supplemental. .

According to them it covers 100% of the bills after a $250- dollar deductible out of the USA. I must pay the bill and then submit the bills for payment.

I am just wondering if I was told the correct answer about this plan.

Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 9:49 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Offshore Health Insurance

 

Hi all,
I'm looking at health insurance for myself again. I've been basically self-insuring for overseas care and have DAN Boaters insurance for emergency medical  repatriation. Iris has GeoBlue plus DAN.

Depending on deductible and copay, I'm looking at $ 7-8K premium, plus $3-10K deductible and $0-5K copay every year. That's a lot of money to pay when the only thing I could imagine costing that much overseas would be emergency surgery. Anything else and we would fly home to let Medicare pay for it.

I'd be interested to know what everyone else is doing.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Kent&Iris
Kristy
SM 243
Hoping to sail S again in Nov depending on COVID rules in Caribbean and beyond.


Matt Salatino
 

I hope you’re right. Wife and I have the same plan. It’s great in the states.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:43 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

HI,

I just got off the phone with AARP. I have plan F supplemental. .

According to them it covers 100% of the bills after a $250- dollar deductible out of the USA. I must pay the bill and then submit the bills for payment.

I am just wondering if I was told the correct answer about this plan.

Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 9:49 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Offshore Health Insurance

 

Hi all,
I'm looking at health insurance for myself again. I've been basically self-insuring for overseas care and have DAN Boaters insurance for emergency medical  repatriation. Iris has GeoBlue plus DAN.

Depending on deductible and copay, I'm looking at $ 7-8K premium, plus $3-10K deductible and $0-5K copay every year. That's a lot of money to pay when the only thing I could imagine costing that much overseas would be emergency surgery. Anything else and we would fly home to let Medicare pay for it.

I'd be interested to know what everyone else is doing.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Kent&Iris
Kristy
SM 243
Hoping to sail S again in Nov depending on COVID rules in Caribbean and beyond.


eric freedman
 

I wish someone else would check this out and see if you are told the same thing as I was Told.
Fair Winds,
eric

On October 19, 2020 at 9:24 PM "Matt Salatino via groups.io" <helmsmatt@...> wrote:

I hope you’re right. Wife and I have the same plan. It’s great in the states.

~~~⛵️~~~Matt

On Oct 19, 2020, at 6:43 PM, eric freedman <kimberlite@...> wrote:

HI,

I just got off the phone with AARP. I have plan F supplemental. .

According to them it covers 100% of the bills after a $250- dollar deductible out of the USA. I must pay the bill and then submit the bills for payment.

I am just wondering if I was told the correct answer about this plan.

Fair Winds

Eric

Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io [mailto:main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io] On Behalf Of karkauai via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 9:49 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Offshore Health Insurance

 

Hi all,
I'm looking at health insurance for myself again. I've been basically self-insuring for overseas care and have DAN Boaters insurance for emergency medical  repatriation. Iris has GeoBlue plus DAN.

Depending on deductible and copay, I'm looking at $ 7-8K premium, plus $3-10K deductible and $0-5K copay every year. That's a lot of money to pay when the only thing I could imagine costing that much overseas would be emergency surgery. Anything else and we would fly home to let Medicare pay for it.

I'd be interested to know what everyone else is doing.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Kent&Iris
Kristy
SM 243
Hoping to sail S again in Nov depending on COVID rules in Caribbean and beyond.


 

 


Craig Briggs
 

Hi Eric - this is as confusing as what direction lip seals should face, but Medicare.gov says: Plan F "Foreign Travel exchange (up to Plan limits)  Covers 80%", with an asterisk that says, " Plans F and G also offer a high-deductible plan in some states. With this option, you must pay for Medicare-covered costs (coinsurance, copayments, and deductibles) up to the deductible amount of $2,340 in 2020 before your policy pays anything. (Plans C and F aren't available to people who are newly eligible for Medicare on or after January 1, 2020.)"

That sounds a different than what you were told by AARP.

My advice would be to stay healthy so you don't have to find out what the coverage actually is! (and change your lip seals tri-annually)
Cheers, Craig -- SN68 Sangaris, Tropic Isle Harbor, FL


Patrick McAneny
 

Does Medicare reimburse for medical care in another country? We spent a few hundred in Guadeloupe and the doctor thought it would if we submitted a claim ,but we did not bother . 
Pat
SM Shenanigans 


-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Briggs via groups.io <sangaris@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2020 9:16 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Offshore Health Insurance

Hi Eric - this is as confusing as what direction lip seals should face, but Medicare.gov says: Plan F "Foreign Travel exchange (up to Plan limits)  Covers 80%", with an asterisk that says, " Plans F and G also offer a high-deductible plan in some states. With this option, you must pay for Medicare-covered costs (coinsurance, copayments, and deductibles) up to the deductible amount of $2,340 in 2020 before your policy pays anything. (Plans C and F aren't available to people who are newly eligible for Medicare on or after January 1, 2020.)"

That sounds a different than what you were told by AARP.

My advice would be to stay healthy so you don't have to find out what the coverage actually is! (and change your lip seals tri-annually)
Cheers, Craig -- SN68 Sangaris, Tropic Isle Harbor, FL


Craig Briggs
 

Hi Pat -
The best and perhaps only definitive answer is to submit your claim and see what they do.
Craig


Thomas Peacock
 

As our president famously said after he was unable to come up with a new health insurance plan, “Who ever thought health insurance could be so complicated?”

I’m not trying to inject any politics into this forum, however; the forum is too precious for that.

In the US, health insurance certainly is complicated. 

You will find many different opinions on what Medicare does and does not cover. 

My best read on traditional Medicare (Parts A and B) is that costs incurred in foreign countries will not be reimbursed, unless you live by the Canadian border and the Canadian hospital is closer than your US hospital. Will not apply for problems in the Caribbean and elsewhere.

Many Part C (Medicare Advantage) plans will reimburse you for foreign expenses. Check your plan.

I will defer to Eric on Plan F, I know nothing. I read up on it on the internet, and came away even more confused.

Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Wintering well above the Tropic of Cancer


On Oct 20, 2020, at 10:58 AM, Craig Briggs via groups.io <sangaris@...> wrote:

Hi Pat -
The best and perhaps only definitive answer is to submit your claim and see what they do.
Craig


--
Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


Teun BAAS
 

Can confirm below – had Q4 2018 surgery in BANGKOK and upon return in USA MEDICARE refused to pay. I have (according to MAYO clinic) “platinum ROLLS ROYCE” supplemental but they originally also tried not to pay. Once I pointed out that they do have an international clause in their policy (one of the main reasons I selected this plan) they finally paid USD18K out of the USD28K.

 

It was not an emergency and, in hindsight, I should have purchased a roundtrip ticket to USA and have everything done by MAYO AND  (even flying 1st class) still saved money 😊. Medical care would have been at the same excellent level; can highly recommend BUMRUNGRATD International Hospital in BANGKOK.

 

Best Regards Teun

 

A54 2009 #128

October 20, 2020 08:28:01

 

 

 

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Thomas Peacock via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2020 08:14
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Offshore Health Insurance

 

As our president famously said after he was unable to come up with a new health insurance plan, “Who ever thought health insurance could be so complicated?”

 

I’m not trying to inject any politics into this forum, however; the forum is too precious for that.

 

In the US, health insurance certainly is complicated. 

 

You will find many different opinions on what Medicare does and does not cover. 

 

My best read on traditional Medicare (Parts A and B) is that costs incurred in foreign countries will not be reimbursed, unless you live by the Canadian border and the Canadian hospital is closer than your US hospital. Will not apply for problems in the Caribbean and elsewhere.

 

Many Part C (Medicare Advantage) plans will reimburse you for foreign expenses. Check your plan.

 

I will defer to Eric on Plan F, I know nothing. I read up on it on the internet, and came away even more confused.

 

Tom Peacock

SM 240 Aletes

Wintering well above the Tropic of Cancer

 



On Oct 20, 2020, at 10:58 AM, Craig Briggs via groups.io <sangaris@...> wrote:

 

Hi Pat -
The best and perhaps only definitive answer is to submit your claim and see what they do.
Craig

 


--
Tom Peacock
SM 240 Aletes
Chesapeake Bay


Patrick McAneny
 

Craig, I don't have a claim at this time, but was asking if anyone knew what the medicare policy is on covering a US citizen abroad, assuming they have one. I am  having my wife/secretary look into our supplemental coverage and it's policy .
Thanks,
Pat


-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Briggs via groups.io <sangaris@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2020 10:58 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Offshore Health Insurance

Hi Pat -
The best and perhaps only definitive answer is to submit your claim and see what they do.
Craig


eric freedman
 

Thanks
Typical government BS.
Eric

On October 20, 2020 at 9:16 AM "Craig Briggs via groups.io" <sangaris@...> wrote:

Hi Eric - this is as confusing as what direction lip seals should face, but Medicare.gov says: Plan F "Foreign Travel exchange (up to Plan limits)  Covers 80%", with an asterisk that says, " Plans F and G also offer a high-deductible plan in some states. With this option, you must pay for Medicare-covered costs (coinsurance, copayments, and deductibles) up to the deductible amount of $2,340 in 2020 before your policy pays anything. (Plans C and F aren't available to people who are newly eligible for Medicare on or after January 1, 2020.)"

That sounds a different than what you were told by AARP.

My advice would be to stay healthy so you don't have to find out what the coverage actually is! (and change your lip seals tri-annually)
Cheers, Craig -- SN68 Sangaris, Tropic Isle Harbor, FL

 


Craig Briggs
 

Hi Pat,  Yes, your post indeed said you did not file a claim. My point was simply that you'll learn what your coverage is if you do file a claim and that may be the most efficient way to find out.

Tom Peacock's post that it is confusing is so true and he pointed out that (Original) Medicare Parts A&B do not cover care outside of the US. To get any coverage outside the US you need either a MediGap Supplemental Plan like your Plan F policy (not any one) or a Medicare Contract Part C plan like Tom and I have (again, not any one).

Teun says he has a "Platinum Rolls Royce" supplemental plan, but in actuality all Medigap Supplemental Plans - Plans A thru N - are standardized by the government and all providers offer exactly the same coverage for each plan (although they charge different premiums). Part C Plans, (not to be confused with Supplemental Plan C) must provide everything that Original Parts A&B cover but may add more, like different deductibles and MOOP's (my favorite acronym for Max Out of Pocket), dental and eye care, and out-of-USA, etc. and charge different premiums from $0 to hundreds a month (on top of the Part A/B premium.

Finally, Tom's (or Teun's) point that all this is subject to an amazingly huge layer of bureaucrats interpreting what's covered or not makes giving an authoritative answer a bit of a fools errand.

Our favorite bureaucratic interchange was in Greece, trying to get stamped out. After literally a two hour wait at the counter with people running about, the supervisor finally took pity on us, came over and most kindly apologized, saying, "I'm so sorry, but this is the first of the month and we have a lot of bureaucracy to do.

Perhaps we should stick to lip seals and Lithium batteries!
--
Cheers, Craig


Ralph Caruso
 

Medicare parts A&B do not cover medical care outside the US.  You may be covered by some Medicare Advantage plans (read the words carefully, because they may only cover emergency care), but the only that I KNOW covers care outside the USA is BCBS issued to current and retired members of the Federal Bureaucracy (I am a retired bureaucrat). You have to be a Federal Employeee or a retiree eligible to particulate in the Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan. It is one of the best plans in the USA (not quite as good as some union-sponsored plans for stuff like dental or glasses), and it covers you everywhere in the world, because lots of Fed employees work or travel outside the US. 

When we lived in France, we used to send our claims back to the US, and they would do the translations and currency conversions and send us a check in $US.  BCBS has an entire large operation dedicated to foreign coverage.  They can even provide you with attestations that you are covered, so that you can present them to foreign governments that require this as a condition for a residency card. (Been there, done that)

Unfortunately, you would have to go back to work, for the US govt, for at least 5 years, in order to become eligible for a pension and FEHBP coverage at age 62, if you retire from the govt.

Ralph Caruso