Ovens & Cooktops


David Vogel
 

Hi Jim,

And thanks for that extra info about the microwave ovens.

Indulging in a bit of topic drift here, but the dialogue and extra info is fantastic (eMail subject changed accordingly).

We have a standalone microwave oven, installed in the nook above the ENO 4-burner gas oven/stove combo. The microwave is a Panasonic, model NN-ST651W.

OVENS: The issue we are experiencing is that the performance of the ENO oven has never really been satisfactory. Hot and cold spots, take ages (if ever) to get to temperature, temperature regulation is a hit and miss affair, and so it goes. So, it’s been on the optional-upgrade list since almost day one. Basically, while it’s working, retain. A soon as something breaks, replace.

We bought a small bread-maker on-board with us when we move on-board Martinique. The second unit, replacing the hard worn original, is slightly larger and more capable so, when out in the boonies we use it to do lasagne & yoghurt in addition to bread and cakes. Does a great job, doesn't heat up the cabin, and is very energy efficient. BTW, we store the bread-maker in the nook where the small flat-screen TV was. We never used that, preferring instead a small beamer for sit-down movie nights. LG PH150G is the model; small, simple, unobtrusive when sitting on the lower drawer port-hand side of the saloon, below the book case. And it throws to the exact size necessary to fill the original AMEL privacy screen (the one for the salon pull-out berth), hanging from the original hooks - the reverse side just happens to be projection-screen white – thank you Henri!

As to the stove/cook-top - we have used a single Tefal induction hob since day one, sitting on a bread-board on top of the gas burners. Whilst in Maine and the Caribbean, we also used it with a large lobster pot in the cockpit (sitting on the aft deck below the mizzen boom, the so-called mizzenine). We’re now running two single induction hobs (Brand: Brabantia) sitting almost permanently on top of the gas burners cook-top – this arrangement is working quite satisfactorily while we find a suitable dual side-by-side induction hob that will fit the available width. We like that we still have gas as a fallback. Or, can relocate an induction hob to a bench to supplement the burners when it’s really happening in the galley -- 4-course Christmas and New Year’s Eve dinners seem to happen regularly on Perigee – our cruising mates seem inevitably to congregate here in preference to their own boats on such occasions, to enjoy the AMEL ambience (and air conditioning). But I digress…

Regarding the oven: the lacklustre performance is a real bug-bear. A fan-forced (convection) oven is one solution. We would consider going for a gas unit. However, as we’re incrementally upgrading the electrics in order to reduce our reliance on hydrocarbon fuels, an electric fan-forced oven seems to be the way to go.

We did try a combi-microwave fan-forced convection oven in the nook above the stove. But this didn’t work out as, for convection cooking, there was inadequate ventilation space around the unit - we never had any problems, but the heat soak in that area was incredible, and simply we felt uncomfortable with that. The matter resolved itself when I forgot the 60Hz shore-power in Colombia, and fried the unit.

We think that the extra ventilation space where the ENO oven is will be sufficient. The main problem is getting a unit that will fit within the width constraint of 500mm +/-, necessary for gimballing. Presently under consideration are some Panasonic Convection Ovens - the ones that are an exact fit are combi, for example, the NN-CS89LB range, have some features we may never use. But quartz griller (quick instant heat), and fan-forced electric cooking (augmented with microwave), well, why not? Some cruising buddies (on catamarans) have installed this model, and swear by it. If there are other brands and models we might gainfully consider, then we're all ears.

And, yes, we're contemplating an air-fryer in the interim. (Storage for whilst underway is becoming an issue. Suggestions?)

Thanks, as always, to the individual contributors - this info-share is huge help.

Best,

David
SM#396, Perigee
NZ



From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of "James Watkins via groups.io" <ewatk49734@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Monday, 11 April 2022 at 9:08 pm
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Standalone Inverter as an AC IN source to a Victron MultiPlus

I have been in the microwave foods business for about 50 years and have never seen a "combi-oven" that really performed to its promise in the marketing literature/hype.  The issue is simply the cavity density of the microwave is much lower than the smaller table top units as the cavity is almost always much smaller.  This effects both the pattern and the speed of cooking in the microwave only mode.  A very easy test of the quality of the power and pattern in your microwave oven is to pop some microwave popcorn.  If it pops properly all is well.  Bottomline best to have separate units designed to work in one fashion not be all things to all people.

Fairwinds
Jim Watkins
Act II Maramu hull 185

On Monday, April 11, 2022, 10:08:01 AM GMT+2, Paul Osterberg <osterberg.paul.l@...> wrote:


David!
We mounted the two burner induction hob on top our normal gas stow, to keep it gimbal, it takes about two minutes to convert back to gas if so desire. For this season we bought an Air fryer i.e a small hot air oven. rather new but it is already my wife's favourite gadget aboard, It draws just over 6 Ah for every 10 minutes of use. We have made apple-pie, French fries, chicken wings, lasagne etc. it taste and looks very good, You can use it for making cup cakes etc, even bake a small loaf of bread, but for that we have a baking machine instead since a year back.
have thought of a combined micro/hot air oven, but usually combination stuff is not really good on either task, but one from Samsung got good marks, however the much larger volume would consume much more energy, We stay with current set up for the season an evaluate eventual benefit with a combo oven, one obvious benefit is one machine instead of two.
Paul on SY Kerpa


Michael Winand
 

We are very pleased with our whirlpool jt479, I think it is now a old model. 
Agree with you about the eno oven. I removed the oven from the hob burners and hung the whirlpool under the gas burners, still gimbaled and put a induction hob on top if required. 
Michael Nebo sm251 

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022, 6:40 am David Vogel, <david.vogel@...> wrote:
Hi Jim,

And thanks for that extra info about the microwave ovens.

Indulging in a bit of topic drift here, but the dialogue and extra info is fantastic (eMail subject changed accordingly).

We have a standalone microwave oven, installed in the nook above the ENO 4-burner gas oven/stove combo.  The microwave is a Panasonic, model NN-ST651W.

OVENS: The issue we are experiencing is that the performance of the ENO oven has never really been satisfactory.  Hot and cold spots, take ages (if ever) to get to temperature, temperature regulation is a hit and miss affair, and so it goes.  So, it’s been on the optional-upgrade list since almost day one.  Basically, while it’s working, retain.  A soon as something breaks, replace.

We bought a small bread-maker on-board with us when we move on-board Martinique.  The second unit, replacing the hard worn original, is slightly larger and more capable so, when out in the boonies we use it to do lasagne & yoghurt in addition to bread and cakes.  Does a great job, doesn't heat up the cabin, and is very energy efficient.  BTW, we store the bread-maker in the nook where the small flat-screen TV was.  We never used that, preferring instead a small beamer for sit-down movie nights.  LG PH150G is the model; small, simple, unobtrusive when sitting on the lower drawer port-hand side of the saloon, below the book case.  And it throws to the exact size necessary to fill the original AMEL privacy screen (the one for the salon pull-out berth), hanging from the original hooks - the reverse side just happens to be projection-screen white – thank you Henri!

As to the stove/cook-top - we have used a single Tefal induction hob since day one, sitting on a bread-board on top of the gas burners.  Whilst in Maine and the Caribbean, we also used it with a large lobster pot in the cockpit (sitting on the aft deck below the mizzen boom, the so-called mizzenine).  We’re now running two single induction hobs (Brand: Brabantia) sitting almost permanently on top of the gas burners cook-top – this arrangement is working quite satisfactorily while we find a suitable dual side-by-side induction hob that will fit the available width.  We like that we still have gas as a fallback.  Or, can relocate an induction hob to a bench to supplement the burners when it’s really happening in the galley -- 4-course Christmas and New Year’s Eve dinners seem to happen regularly on Perigee – our cruising mates seem inevitably to congregate here in preference to their own boats on such occasions, to enjoy the AMEL ambience (and air conditioning).  But I digress…

Regarding the oven: the lacklustre performance is a real bug-bear.  A fan-forced (convection) oven is one solution.  We would consider going for a gas unit.  However, as we’re incrementally upgrading the electrics in order to reduce our reliance on hydrocarbon fuels, an electric fan-forced oven seems to be the way to go.

We did try a combi-microwave fan-forced convection oven in the nook above the stove.  But this didn’t work out as, for convection cooking, there was inadequate ventilation space around the unit - we never had any problems, but the heat soak in that area was incredible, and simply we felt uncomfortable with that.  The matter resolved itself when I forgot the 60Hz shore-power in Colombia, and fried the unit.

We think that the extra ventilation space where the ENO oven is will be sufficient.  The main problem is getting a unit that will fit within the width constraint of 500mm +/-, necessary for gimballing.  Presently under consideration are some Panasonic Convection Ovens - the ones that are an exact fit are combi, for example, the NN-CS89LB range, have some features we may never use.  But quartz griller (quick instant heat), and fan-forced electric cooking (augmented with microwave), well, why not?  Some cruising buddies (on catamarans) have installed this model, and swear by it.  If there are other brands and models we might gainfully consider, then we're all ears.

And, yes, we're contemplating an air-fryer in the interim.  (Storage for whilst underway is becoming an issue.  Suggestions?)

Thanks, as always, to the individual contributors - this info-share is huge help.

Best,

David
SM#396, Perigee
NZ



From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of "James Watkins via groups.io" <ewatk49734=yahoo.com@groups.io>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Monday, 11 April 2022 at 9:08 pm
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Standalone Inverter as an AC IN source to a Victron MultiPlus

I have been in the microwave foods business for about 50 years and have never seen a "combi-oven" that really performed to its promise in the marketing literature/hype.  The issue is simply the cavity density of the microwave is much lower than the smaller table top units as the cavity is almost always much smaller.  This effects both the pattern and the speed of cooking in the microwave only mode.  A very easy test of the quality of the power and pattern in your microwave oven is to pop some microwave popcorn.  If it pops properly all is well.  Bottomline best to have separate units designed to work in one fashion not be all things to all people.

Fairwinds
Jim Watkins
Act II Maramu hull 185



On Monday, April 11, 2022, 10:08:01 AM GMT+2, Paul Osterberg <osterberg.paul.l@...> wrote:


David!
We mounted the two burner induction hob on top our normal gas stow, to keep it gimbal, it takes about two minutes to convert back to gas if so desire. For this season we bought an Air fryer i.e a small hot air oven. rather new but it is already my wife's favourite gadget aboard, It draws just over 6 Ah for every 10 minutes of use. We have made apple-pie, French fries, chicken wings, lasagne etc. it taste and looks very good, You can use it for making cup cakes etc, even bake a small loaf of bread, but for that we have a baking machine instead since a year back.
have thought of a combined micro/hot air oven, but usually combination stuff is not really good on either task, but one from Samsung got good marks, however the much larger volume would consume much more energy, We stay with current set up for the season an evaluate eventual benefit with a combo oven, one obvious benefit is one machine instead of two.
Paul on SY Kerpa









Stefan Jeukendrup
 

We recently started using a  CASO 2226 Pro Menu 3500 induction hob.
Fits into our year 2002 ENO 2 burner stove.

Very happy with its performance.

Attention, might not fit in yours: width and height of the ENO cooktop changed slightly ove rtime.

Stefan Jeukendrup
sv Malaka Queen
SM2k #348 @Tanger, Morocco


David Vogel
 

And, to follow on from Stefan's update, it's not been all angst-of-bowthruster on Perigee ...

... it is exactly a year to the day (today) since we first started acting towards this long-anticipated upgrade, the transition to an all-electric galley.

Now, the results, installed and working.

The stovetop being the eye-wateringly expensive GN Espace 3-Hob built-in induction cooktop (model: HE101). Depending on your area, you may be able to obtain Bill's AMEL SCHOOL discount - check with Bill first *before* contacting GN Espace. Also, beware that this unit in not yet available to purchase in all regions, pending approval to local electrical standards.

BTW, we have been induction cooking since first moving aboard, firstly using a TEFAL single-hob bench-top unit, Model: IH2018, purchased in Martinique early 2017; normally sitting on a cutting board atop the ENO 4-burner stove-top; and recently upgraded to two x single hobs, Brabantia brand, which are narrow enough to fit snugly side-by-side on the ENO stove-top.

Having the larger contiguous cooking surface provided by two hobs was a game-changer, especially for multi-pot cooking, or even as stove-top 'storage' underway. We found that both the TEFAL and Brabantia single bench-top hobs were very hard on the inverter, basically cycling intermittently between off to almost full-power, with the various power-levels in general terms altering the balance of the ON/OFF cycle interval; the current draw regularly pulling an intermittent 60A at 24vDC.

We have found the GN Espace hob thus far to be much 'softer', drawing a lower constant power, as a result being able to use up to power step 7 (of 9) on our existing 1,500W inverter, drawing 35A @ 24vDC -- as an indication, boiling 500ml of water is slow at this setting, taking about 3 minutes; it takes about 45 seconds with genset or shore-power or, in future, a 3,000W inverter. Most twin induction hobs we have seen have been too wide, and it was the width of the GN Espace 3-Hob HE101, being narrow enough to fit into the available space without requiring major cabinet work to reshape the galley, that was the eventual decider for this model (plus, 3 hobs, and being designed for marine use, self-limiting to 3,000W max, even though the sum of each individual hob's rating exceeds this).

Initially, we had been considering either gas or electric fan-forced and, in the interim, found a multi-function bread-maker fulfilled many if not most requirements for cooking for two - bread, of course, plus cakes, small 'one-pot' stews & lasagnes, whilst reducing cabin heating (important in the tropics) to a minimum. Regarding the cook-top, a 'near miss' with a fat boil-over, fortunately whilst using induction, but which would have almost certainly been catastrophic if we had been using a gas burner, was the catalyst to move towards eliminating the use of naked flames for indoors cooking, and retain gas for the externally plumbed BBQ only. Decision thus made to transition to an all-electric galley.

The main driver to upgrade the oven was initially to implement a fan-forced oven, to avoid the hot- and cold-spots we experienced with our ENO oven. The electric-vs-gas decision moved us away from a gas solution. We have settled on an electric Panasonic NN-CS89LB 31 liter unit, providing combi Fan-Forced convection & Microwave ovens with Grill, and Steam functions.

Three primary reasons for choosing this model: 1. fan-forced oven with grill, combined with microwave was nice, steaming functions an added bonus; 2. it fits in the available space: H=391mm, W=500mm, D=480mm (and designed for 'built-in' installation); and 3. we can use our existing 1,500W inverter for some modes (1,300W Grill; 1,000W Microwave). The fact that we already had a 3,000W MultiPlus awaiting installation meant that we will soon be able to use all the oven's functions essentially without restriction (in conjunction with replacing the switching circuit breaker on the 220VAC panel for the decommissioned dishwasher, with a 25A Diruptor CB (code: 7222204 25D), and re-purposing the dishwasher outlet under the sink for the oven).

We are electing to hold the existing smaller full-sine-wave inverter in place, as we have heard that the Victron MultiPlus has a higher at-rest power draw than we would like; we are interested in power conservation and when, for example, we are using AC only for charging laptops and other devices, and lower-power uses like the coffee machine or bread-maker, note that we have been quite comfortable with 1,500W in most instances to date; in future, when previously we would have started the generator, we now will switch on the larger inverter. We are also upgrading our solar from 400W presently, to 1,600W, feeding into 575Ah of Firefly batteries which are (fingers crossed) still performing well after 2-1/2 years. A later lithium upgrade is under consideration, but not yet being actively pursued.

I hope these notes may help someone else in their deliberations, as it seems that many of us are travelling this particular upgrade path.

I remain open to comments, questions, and suggestions.

Thank you, and with kind regards,

David
SM#396, Perigee
Bay of Islands, NZ

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Stefan Jeukendrup <sjeukendrup@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Monday, 7 November 2022 at 12:30 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Ovens & Cooktops

We recently started using a  CASO 2226 Pro Menu 3500 induction hob.
Fits into our year 2002 ENO 2 burner stove.

Very happy with its performance.

Attention, might not fit in yours: width and height of the ENO cooktop changed slightly ove rtime.

Stefan Jeukendrup
sv Malaka Queen
SM2k #348 @Tanger, Morocco


Craig Ward
 

Thanks David, a great write up with lots of helpful information. The pictures look fantastic!
I have only one suggestion, and that is to look more urgently at the battery upgrade. Pulling 3000 watts of power from an AGM battery bank, while possible, will drastically shorten the life of the batteries.
I’ve noticed that Amel battery banks are very well wired up but there is always the possibility that one battery will inadvertently provide more current than the others, which isn’t good for it, so I suggest in the interim checking all of the battery leads and making sure they’re all in similar condition and are the same length between batteries and that the main cables from the battery bank to the inverter is mid way between the ends of the bank when measured by cable length. Of course it’s a good idea to replace all of the cables if you find one in poor condition.
If you’re careful about how you draw power, increasing the current gradually rather than suddenly, you’ll get a bit more life out of them, but unfortunately they just don’t survive large loads for long and you’ll probably find yourself needing to replace them sooner rather than later.

Thanks again for the post, I’ll save it so I have the part/model numbers of your appliances when I finally have my own Amel!

Regards,

Craig

On 8 Nov 2022, at 15:37, David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:

And, to follow on from Stefan's update, it's not been all angst-of-bowthruster on Perigee ...

... it is exactly a year to the day (today) since we first started acting towards this long-anticipated upgrade, the transition to an all-electric galley.

Now, the results, installed and working.

The stovetop being the eye-wateringly expensive GN Espace 3-Hob built-in induction cooktop (model: HE101). Depending on your area, you may be able to obtain Bill's AMEL SCHOOL discount - check with Bill first *before* contacting GN Espace. Also, beware that this unit in not yet available to purchase in all regions, pending approval to local electrical standards.

BTW, we have been induction cooking since first moving aboard, firstly using a TEFAL single-hob bench-top unit, Model: IH2018, purchased in Martinique early 2017; normally sitting on a cutting board atop the ENO 4-burner stove-top; and recently upgraded to two x single hobs, Brabantia brand, which are narrow enough to fit snugly side-by-side on the ENO stove-top.

Having the larger contiguous cooking surface provided by two hobs was a game-changer, especially for multi-pot cooking, or even as stove-top 'storage' underway. We found that both the TEFAL and Brabantia single bench-top hobs were very hard on the inverter, basically cycling intermittently between off to almost full-power, with the various power-levels in general terms altering the balance of the ON/OFF cycle interval; the current draw regularly pulling an intermittent 60A at 24vDC.

We have found the GN Espace hob thus far to be much 'softer', drawing a lower constant power, as a result being able to use up to power step 7 (of 9) on our existing 1,500W inverter, drawing 35A @ 24vDC -- as an indication, boiling 500ml of water is slow at this setting, taking about 3 minutes; it takes about 45 seconds with genset or shore-power or, in future, a 3,000W inverter. Most twin induction hobs we have seen have been too wide, and it was the width of the GN Espace 3-Hob HE101, being narrow enough to fit into the available space without requiring major cabinet work to reshape the galley, that was the eventual decider for this model (plus, 3 hobs, and being designed for marine use, self-limiting to 3,000W max, even though the sum of each individual hob's rating exceeds this).

Initially, we had been considering either gas or electric fan-forced and, in the interim, found a multi-function bread-maker fulfilled many if not most requirements for cooking for two - bread, of course, plus cakes, small 'one-pot' stews & lasagnes, whilst reducing cabin heating (important in the tropics) to a minimum. Regarding the cook-top, a 'near miss' with a fat boil-over, fortunately whilst using induction, but which would have almost certainly been catastrophic if we had been using a gas burner, was the catalyst to move towards eliminating the use of naked flames for indoors cooking, and retain gas for the externally plumbed BBQ only. Decision thus made to transition to an all-electric galley.

The main driver to upgrade the oven was initially to implement a fan-forced oven, to avoid the hot- and cold-spots we experienced with our ENO oven. The electric-vs-gas decision moved us away from a gas solution. We have settled on an electric Panasonic NN-CS89LB 31 liter unit, providing combi Fan-Forced convection & Microwave ovens with Grill, and Steam functions.

Three primary reasons for choosing this model: 1. fan-forced oven with grill, combined with microwave was nice, steaming functions an added bonus; 2. it fits in the available space: H=391mm, W=500mm, D=480mm (and designed for 'built-in' installation); and 3. we can use our existing 1,500W inverter for some modes (1,300W Grill; 1,000W Microwave). The fact that we already had a 3,000W MultiPlus awaiting installation meant that we will soon be able to use all the oven's functions essentially without restriction (in conjunction with replacing the switching circuit breaker on the 220VAC panel for the decommissioned dishwasher, with a 25A Diruptor CB (code: 7222204 25D), and re-purposing the dishwasher outlet under the sink for the oven).

We are electing to hold the existing smaller full-sine-wave inverter in place, as we have heard that the Victron MultiPlus has a higher at-rest power draw than we would like; we are interested in power conservation and when, for example, we are using AC only for charging laptops and other devices, and lower-power uses like the coffee machine or bread-maker, note that we have been quite comfortable with 1,500W in most instances to date; in future, when previously we would have started the generator, we now will switch on the larger inverter. We are also upgrading our solar from 400W presently, to 1,600W, feeding into 575Ah of Firefly batteries which are (fingers crossed) still performing well after 2-1/2 years. A later lithium upgrade is under consideration, but not yet being actively pursued.

I hope these notes may help someone else in their deliberations, as it seems that many of us are travelling this particular upgrade path.

I remain open to comments, questions, and suggestions.

Thank you, and with kind regards,

David
SM#396, Perigee
Bay of Islands, NZ

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Stefan Jeukendrup <sjeukendrup@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Monday, 7 November 2022 at 12:30 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Ovens & Cooktops

We recently started using a CASO 2226 Pro Menu 3500 induction hob.
Fits into our year 2002 ENO 2 burner stove.

Very happy with its performance.

Attention, might not fit in yours: width and height of the ENO cooktop changed slightly ove rtime.

Stefan Jeukendrup
sv Malaka Queen
SM2k #348 @Tanger, Morocco







<01 - Electric Oven+Stove.jpg>
<02 - Induction Cooktop.jpeg>
<03 - Combi Microwave + FanForced Oven.jpeg>


Bill Kinney
 

At the risk of being a labeled a contrarian, "I hate my induction plate!"

OK, I wrote that just to get your attention, and it's not QUITE true. There are things I do like about it. I have written about the use of electric cooking onboard from the standpoint of the ship's engineer before. This is specifically about the difference between my gas stovetop and my induction plate from a COOK’s perspective. If your idea of cooking onboard is reheating a frozen casserole you brought from home or heating a can of soup, you can stop reading right here. Nothing applies. Gas or induction will serve you well. But, that’s not me.

I am a fussy cook. There is almost nothing from a prime rib roast to a cajun gumbo that I don’t turn out from our galley as good as you’ll find anywhere. The difference between good cooking and REALLY good cooking are the details. So this is really about the details. Many, most, possibly even the vast majority of, people won't care a wit about the issues I raise in my comments, and that's fine. The way most people cook it won't matter, and that is fine.
 
We are full time liveaboards, and cruise across a wide area of ocean. Our boat is our only home, and has been for a long time. I have three primary cooking appliances aboard. A 220V 2000W single burner induction plate, a four-burner Force10 propane stove/oven/broiler and a small microwave-convection-air fryer.  Obviously, given space and utility constraints none of these tools are high end professional cook's tools, but they all work for us.
 
There are a few tasks at which my induction burner wins hands down. The burners on my gas stove are terrible at heating a wok. The sides of the pan get hot, and the center stays cool. This is practically unusable. The induction burner turns this around, and it heats the bottom—but not the sides. This is not perfect, but it is WAY better. It’s good enough it has put the wok back into my regular cooking rotation. My flat-bottom cast iron wok is used regularly on the induction plate for stir-frying, deep frying. and steaming.
 
The induction plate can get a pan of water hot a good bit faster (like more than twice as fast) than the gas cooktop, and transfer less heat to the cabin while doing it. Another win.
 
There is, however, a huge downside to the induction plate, at least MY induction plate.  One I was not expecting: Heating is VERY uneven. A pan gets hot in a distinct ring about 4 inches in diameter and an inch wide. For me, this negates many of the advantages of the system. I can not cook pancakes evenly. Putting a steak on to sear results in a perfect sear… in a ring on the meat and it is raw at the edges. A thick sauce left to simmer burns to the pan in a ring, and cooks not at all round the edges. Trying to brown individual pieces of food just doesn’t work. The pieces at the edge of the pan don’t cook and the ones in the middle barely cook, while the ones over the “ring of fire” cook fast. This is cooking with a very heavy cast iron pan that should be as good as most in spreading heat. Certainly the pan does not have this problem on the gas burner.
 
For cooking in my wok, or boiling water for pasta, induction is better. For almost everything else, I wouldn’t ever voluntarily trade it for gas. Could I cook well on an induction cooktop? Yeah.. with practice. But I find it a LOT easier to do so with propane. If I had to choose one or the other, gas would be the clear and easy choice to keep.
 
If you are a cooking nerd, I would suggest before you spend a lot of money to trade out your gas cooker, you get a portable induction plate and cook with it for a while. See what you think. They are not expensive. You might decide they are every bit as good as all the hype suggests, and I am all wet. Or not.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Le Marin, Martinique
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


hanspeter baettig
 

Hi Bill
very interesting input. Fully agree as I have the same setup and love to cook.
So my force10 ofen often is in action 1-2 houres (to make a nice “Sonntagsbraten” 😉)
The induction plate same as you only for quick cooking something.
Bon appétit
Hanspeter
SM 16 Tamango 2
Costa Rica


Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 08.11.2022 um 14:24 schrieb Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>:

At the risk of being a labeled a contrarian, "I hate my induction plate!"

OK, I wrote that just to get your attention, and it's not QUITE true. There are things I do like about it. I have written about the use of electric cooking onboard from the standpoint of the ship's engineer before. This is specifically about the difference between my gas stovetop and my induction plate from a COOK’s perspective. If your idea of cooking onboard is reheating a frozen casserole you brought from home or heating a can of soup, you can stop reading right here. Nothing applies. Gas or induction will serve you well. But, that’s not me.

I am a fussy cook. There is almost nothing from a prime rib roast to a cajun gumbo that I don’t turn out from our galley as good as you’ll find anywhere. The difference between good cooking and REALLY good cooking are the details. So this is really about the details. Many, most, possibly even the vast majority of, people won't care a wit about the issues I raise in my comments, and that's fine. The way most people cook it won't matter, and that is fine.
 
We are full time liveaboards, and cruise across a wide area of ocean. Our boat is our only home, and has been for a long time. I have three primary cooking appliances aboard. A 220V 2000W single burner induction plate, a four-burner Force10 propane stove/oven/broiler and a small microwave-convection-air fryer.  Obviously, given space and utility constraints none of these tools are high end professional cook's tools, but they all work for us.
 
There are a few tasks at which my induction burner wins hands down. The burners on my gas stove are terrible at heating a wok. The sides of the pan get hot, and the center stays cool. This is practically unusable. The induction burner turns this around, and it heats the bottom—but not the sides. This is not perfect, but it is WAY better. It’s good enough it has put the wok back into my regular cooking rotation. My flat-bottom cast iron wok is used regularly on the induction plate for stir-frying, deep frying. and steaming.
 
The induction plate can get a pan of water hot a good bit faster (like more than twice as fast) than the gas cooktop, and transfer less heat to the cabin while doing it. Another win.
 
There is, however, a huge downside to the induction plate, at least MY induction plate.  One I was not expecting: Heating is VERY uneven. A pan gets hot in a distinct ring about 4 inches in diameter and an inch wide. For me, this negates many of the advantages of the system. I can not cook pancakes evenly. Putting a steak on to sear results in a perfect sear… in a ring on the meat and it is raw at the edges. A thick sauce left to simmer burns to the pan in a ring, and cooks not at all round the edges. Trying to brown individual pieces of food just doesn’t work. The pieces at the edge of the pan don’t cook and the ones in the middle barely cook, while the ones over the “ring of fire” cook fast. This is cooking with a very heavy cast iron pan that should be as good as most in spreading heat. Certainly the pan does not have this problem on the gas burner.
 
For cooking in my wok, or boiling water for pasta, induction is better. For almost everything else, I wouldn’t ever voluntarily trade it for gas. Could I cook well on an induction cooktop? Yeah.. with practice. But I find it a LOT easier to do so with propane. If I had to choose one or the other, gas would be the clear and easy choice to keep.
 
If you are a cooking nerd, I would suggest before you spend a lot of money to trade out your gas cooker, you get a portable induction plate and cook with it for a while. See what you think. They are not expensive. You might decide they are every bit as good as all the hype suggests, and I am all wet. Or not.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Le Marin, Martinique
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


Craig Ward
 

Bill,

I too am am a cooking enthusiast, and there’s nothing I love more than cooking on cast iron and in particular cast iron over an actual fire, it just brings the food to a new level that can’t be beaten! 
However! When it comes to induction cooking, cast iron is just no good. Before you give up on induction cooking I would encourage you to grab some decent quality purpose made pots and pans and try again, your results will be completely different! I save the cast iron for outdoor cooking on camp fires and use pots and pans made for induction cooking inside, and my induction cooker is by far the best cooktop I’ve ever used after a brief adjustment period! It took some frustrations similar to yours, but once I replaced my regular cookware with induction specific (good quality) cookware I never looked back!

Regards,

Craig

On 9 Nov 2022, at 07:47, hanspeter baettig <hanspeter.baettig@...> wrote:

 Hi Bill
very interesting input. Fully agree as I have the same setup and love to cook.
So my force10 ofen often is in action 1-2 houres (to make a nice “Sonntagsbraten” 😉)
The induction plate same as you only for quick cooking something.
Bon appétit
Hanspeter
SM 16 Tamango 2
Costa Rica


Von meinem iPad gesendet

Am 08.11.2022 um 14:24 schrieb Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>:

At the risk of being a labeled a contrarian, "I hate my induction plate!"

OK, I wrote that just to get your attention, and it's not QUITE true. There are things I do like about it. I have written about the use of electric cooking onboard from the standpoint of the ship's engineer before. This is specifically about the difference between my gas stovetop and my induction plate from a COOK’s perspective. If your idea of cooking onboard is reheating a frozen casserole you brought from home or heating a can of soup, you can stop reading right here. Nothing applies. Gas or induction will serve you well. But, that’s not me.

I am a fussy cook. There is almost nothing from a prime rib roast to a cajun gumbo that I don’t turn out from our galley as good as you’ll find anywhere. The difference between good cooking and REALLY good cooking are the details. So this is really about the details. Many, most, possibly even the vast majority of, people won't care a wit about the issues I raise in my comments, and that's fine. The way most people cook it won't matter, and that is fine.
 
We are full time liveaboards, and cruise across a wide area of ocean. Our boat is our only home, and has been for a long time. I have three primary cooking appliances aboard. A 220V 2000W single burner induction plate, a four-burner Force10 propane stove/oven/broiler and a small microwave-convection-air fryer.  Obviously, given space and utility constraints none of these tools are high end professional cook's tools, but they all work for us.
 
There are a few tasks at which my induction burner wins hands down. The burners on my gas stove are terrible at heating a wok. The sides of the pan get hot, and the center stays cool. This is practically unusable. The induction burner turns this around, and it heats the bottom—but not the sides. This is not perfect, but it is WAY better. It’s good enough it has put the wok back into my regular cooking rotation. My flat-bottom cast iron wok is used regularly on the induction plate for stir-frying, deep frying. and steaming.
 
The induction plate can get a pan of water hot a good bit faster (like more than twice as fast) than the gas cooktop, and transfer less heat to the cabin while doing it. Another win.
 
There is, however, a huge downside to the induction plate, at least MY induction plate.  One I was not expecting: Heating is VERY uneven. A pan gets hot in a distinct ring about 4 inches in diameter and an inch wide. For me, this negates many of the advantages of the system. I can not cook pancakes evenly. Putting a steak on to sear results in a perfect sear… in a ring on the meat and it is raw at the edges. A thick sauce left to simmer burns to the pan in a ring, and cooks not at all round the edges. Trying to brown individual pieces of food just doesn’t work. The pieces at the edge of the pan don’t cook and the ones in the middle barely cook, while the ones over the “ring of fire” cook fast. This is cooking with a very heavy cast iron pan that should be as good as most in spreading heat. Certainly the pan does not have this problem on the gas burner.
 
For cooking in my wok, or boiling water for pasta, induction is better. For almost everything else, I wouldn’t ever voluntarily trade it for gas. Could I cook well on an induction cooktop? Yeah.. with practice. But I find it a LOT easier to do so with propane. If I had to choose one or the other, gas would be the clear and easy choice to keep.
 
If you are a cooking nerd, I would suggest before you spend a lot of money to trade out your gas cooker, you get a portable induction plate and cook with it for a while. See what you think. They are not expensive. You might decide they are every bit as good as all the hype suggests, and I am all wet. Or not.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Le Marin, Martinique
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


David Vogel
 

Hi Bill.K,

I agree with your comments, based on our experience over 5-years' since we started trialling cooking on-board with induction, there is a learning curve to using induction to best effect. But, it is not much different to my original transition from old-style resistive electric to gas (woo-hoo), and then to infra-ceramic, and so on - the evolution is like from the old-style still-air ovens, to fan-forced (convection) cooking, to combi-cooking using radiant heat &/or moving heated-air, with microwave, and steamer & grill to finish things off. Anyway, I digress - like you, we did get some pretty impressive "hot spots" with our first iterations of "induction suitable" pans used on top of single-hob benchtop induction hotplates.

We noticed these hot-spots were not necessarily consistent across all pans, some brands being more susceptible than others, not to mention some cheaper cookware deforming at the base. Accordingly, we have upgraded our saucepans and frypans a number of times - most recently to some TEFAL brand cookware - and have found significant incremental improvements along the way. We also noted that the TEFAL benchtop hob had a smoother and larger 'sweet-spot' than the Brabantias. So, I guess a fair conclusion would be to say that not all cookware, or inductions hobs, are created equal.

To be honest, we're not into "haute cuisine" mode at the moment, more like boat-project mode, so we hadn’t specifically tested to see what was the actual heating area of the new built-in triple hobs. Thus far, we've had only pleasant surprises with the new cooktop (e.g. graduated power draw) - and, I guess, also falling prey to normal human frailties .... having just forked out a sizeable wad of cash, I'm not exactly going out of my way to find fault and potentially trigger a serious case of buyer's remorse ;- )

In any event, as we've been in refit mode and not actually sailing anywhere, we did have the opportunity to trial the combi-oven for over 3 months, on the saloon table, before committing to an install. Range of testing included from re-heating store-made meals (errk, but, let's be honest, sometimes necessary), to pizzas home-made from scratch, to full roast dinners for 4 (lamb / beef / chook, with veggies), to cakes & quiches, and so on - just to make sure that it was indeed fit-for-our-purpose, before committing to keeping the unit. We've both been pretty happy from the outset, and there were even a few sighs when the oven was removed to the shop for design-work and integration fitting ...

Anyway, with my interest duly piqued by your comments, I took a few moments out to actually check the heating areas on our new cooktop - see the attached image for the results (this is consistent across each of the three cooking areas).

In closing, I also agree with you - induction is not for everyone, nor for every situation - our good old-fashioned Aussie burnt offerings of BBQ'd steak or lamb-chops do require the flames and smoke that can only be (safely & quickly) provided by a gas-fired barbie. And, we keep this on-board, not only to provide some AMEL-style redundancy to an all-electric galley, but for the pure and honest eating pleasure of properly BBQ'd steak.

I do hope that this reply contributes positively to the discussion, and adds to the community's knowledge-base to assist informed decisions by all and sundry.

Blue skies,

David
SM#396, Perigee
Bay of Islands, NZ

PS - attached also some PICs of the WOK-style pan, TEFAL brand, that is finding good use in galley-Perigee. So far, so good. Next, looking forward to using our new induction-suitable pressure-cooker / large pot on the cooktop to Sous Vide - I'm hoping the Lo/Med/Hi temperature pre-sets will readily do the trick.



From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Wednesday, 9 November 2022 at 9:24 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Ovens & Cooktops

At the risk of being a labeled a contrarian, "I hate my induction plate!"

OK, I wrote that just to get your attention, and it's not QUITE true. There are things I do like about it. I have written about the use of electric cooking onboard from the http://fetchinketch.net/boat_thoughts/electric-or-propane/. This is specifically about the difference between my gas stovetop and my induction plate from a COOK’s perspective. If your idea of cooking onboard is reheating a frozen casserole you brought from home or heating a can of soup, you can stop reading right here. Nothing applies. Gas or induction will serve you well. But, that’s not me.

I am a fussy cook. There is almost nothing from a prime rib roast to a cajun gumbo that I don’t turn out from our galley as good as you’ll find anywhere. The difference between good cooking and REALLY good cooking are the details. So this is really about the details. Many, most, possibly even the vast majority of, people won't care a wit about the issues I raise in my comments, and that's fine. The way most people cook it won't matter, and that is fine.

We are full time liveaboards, and cruise across a wide area of ocean. Our boat is our only home, and has been for a long time. I have three primary cooking appliances aboard. A 220V 2000W single burner induction plate, a four-burner Force10 propane stove/oven/broiler and a small microwave-convection-air fryer. Obviously, given space and utility constraints none of these tools are high end professional cook's tools, but they all work for us.

There are a few tasks at which my induction burner wins hands down. The burners on my gas stove are terrible at heating a wok. The sides of the pan get hot, and the center stays cool. This is practically unusable. The induction burner turns this around, and it heats the bottom—but not the sides. This is not perfect, but it is WAY better. It’s good enough it has put the wok back into my regular cooking rotation. My flat-bottom cast iron wok is used regularly on the induction plate for stir-frying, deep frying. and steaming.

The induction plate can get a pan of water hot a good bit faster (like more than twice as fast) than the gas cooktop, and transfer less heat to the cabin while doing it. Another win.

There is, however, a huge downside to the induction plate, at least MY induction plate. One I was not expecting: Heating is VERY uneven. A pan gets hot in a distinct ring about 4 inches in diameter and an inch wide. For me, this negates many of the advantages of the system. I can not cook pancakes evenly. Putting a steak on to sear results in a perfect sear… in a ring on the meat and it is raw at the edges. A thick sauce left to simmer burns to the pan in a ring, and cooks not at all round the edges. Trying to brown individual pieces of food just doesn’t work. The pieces at the edge of the pan don’t cook and the ones in the middle barely cook, while the ones over the “ring of fire” cook fast. This is cooking with a very heavy cast iron pan that should be as good as most in spreading heat. Certainly the pan does not have this problem on the gas burner.

For cooking in my wok, or boiling water for pasta, induction is better. For almost everything else, I wouldn’t ever voluntarily trade it for gas. Could I cook well on an induction cooktop? Yeah.. with practice. But I find it a LOT easier to do so with propane. If I had to choose one or the other, gas would be the clear and easy choice to keep.

If you are a cooking nerd, I would suggest before you spend a lot of money to trade out your gas cooker, you get a portable induction plate and cook with it for a while. See what you think. They are not expensive. You might decide they are every bit as good as all the hype suggests, and I am all wet. Or not.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Le Marin, Martinique
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


Bill Kinney
 

David,

This is the small oven we fit into the space above the cooktop.  Our boat was wired from Amel for BOTH 110 and 220, so we had no trouble with that.  It fit, and the clearances are a bit tight, but acceptable.  It functions as a good microwave, although I have to say I don't know what a "bad" microwave would behave like.  It tolerates the modified sine wave power out of our ancient 110 inverter.  It is a good convection oven, holds temperature well, and is JUST big enough to be be really useful. It will handle a 5 lb beef roast, or a 6 lb chicken without an issue and roast to perfection at both low and high temperatures. It's not quite such a great air-fryer, it's hard heating up that much space that quickly, but if we pre-heat it it does a good job.  It is missing a proper broiler, but that's not a big deal for us, because our propane stove has a great one.

I'll see if I can find a T-Fal pan in my travels, and give it a try.  Another tool is always a good thing :)

Bill


Dan Carlson
 

We currently use a Tefal one burner induction hob. I also noticed the current cycling and it will "overheat" or "time out" on longer cooking recipes and needs to be turned off and on.  

We have not experienced hot-spots. But we are happy with a nesting set of Magma pots and large saute pan (see photo), we also had a couple of Blue Diamond non-stick skillets that seem to be holding up well, and a Presto pressure cooker. All used on the job at times. Our most common use on induction is the pressure cooker. Fantastic! Quick to heat and no excess heat in the galley.

Thanks for all of the shares on this topic. Food on our boat is important to me! 

Daniel and Lori Carlson on sv BeBe, SM #387



On Wed, Nov 9, 2022, 1:05 PM Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
David,

This is the small oven we fit into the space above the cooktop.  Our boat was wired from Amel for BOTH 110 and 220, so we had no trouble with that.  It fit, and the clearances are a bit tight, but acceptable.  It functions as a good microwave, although I have to say I don't know what a "bad" microwave would behave like.  It tolerates the modified sine wave power out of our ancient 110 inverter.  It is a good convection oven, holds temperature well, and is JUST big enough to be be really useful. It will handle a 5 lb beef roast, or a 6 lb chicken without an issue and roast to perfection at both low and high temperatures. It's not quite such a great air-fryer, it's hard heating up that much space that quickly, but if we pre-heat it it does a good job.  It is missing a proper broiler, but that's not a big deal for us, because our propane stove has a great one.

I'll see if I can find a T-Fal pan in my travels, and give it a try.  Another tool is always a good thing :)

Bill


Bill Kinney
 

David, and Craig, and other commenters...

I am coming around a bit.  Based on the suggestions I heard here, I got a different pan.  I wasn't expecting miracles, and I figured if it didn't help, the new pan would always be useful on my gas hob.

It actually made a pretty amazing difference.  The heating is now quite even, and all of the other benefits of an induction plate are now more worth exploring. It will take a fair bit of exploring and learning, cooking with the induction hob is quite different in several subtle ways that I am still learning. I am not convinced it is better than gas overall, but it has become a useful tool for a much wider range of cooking than I previously entertained.  

I am not contemplating a swap out from propane.  The increased operating costs and expensive infrastructure changes needed for all electric cooking make that a major project that doesn't really feel enough like an major upgrade to justify for the foreseeable future. 

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Le Marin, Martinique
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


José Balcells
 

Hello and greetings:

An interesting article from the Electric Power Research Institute comparing induction, conventional electric, and gas in case anyone is interested in reading it. Numbers will vary depending where you are in the world, but still a good rough estimate on efficiency, etc.

https://www.aceee.org/files/proceedings/2014/data/papers/9-702.pdf

Regards,
José Balcells