SM additional aft hatch and cockpit table


Michael Fuchs
 

Hello!


I'm looking for inspiration on two topics for my early SM:

1) Aft cabin extra hatch above the bed. I remember I saw some pictures but I can't find them any more. What size did you take? Any recommendations?

2) I have the large cockpit table which is stored downstairs. I would like to add a new tabe which is easier stored away like the one from the 54. How did you solve this?

Thank you very much!
Michael
-
SM#75 Eden (soon "Sulair II")


Dan Wilcox
 

Hi Michael, there was a hatch above the bed when purchased our Amel.  We really enjoy the extra airflow,  and gazing at the stars at night.  On the inside I recently installed a roller shade/screen which works great.

Inline image

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend SM#86

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 10:23:01 PM PDT, Michael Fuchs <fuchsmi@...> wrote:


Hello!


I'm looking for inspiration on two topics for my early SM:

1) Aft cabin extra hatch above the bed. I remember I saw some pictures but I can't find them any more. What size did you take? Any recommendations?

2) I have the large cockpit table which is stored downstairs. I would like to add a new tabe which is easier stored away like the one from the 54. How did you solve this?

Thank you very much!
Michael
-
SM#75 Eden (soon "Sulair II")


Bill Kinney
 

Michael,

When we first got our SM we thought about adding a hatch to the aft cabin, and are glad we did not.  

There are a number of complications.  
  • First, you are cutting a large hole in a cored deck.  The balsa core needs to be absolutely sealed against water intrusion.  It is certainly possible to do, but is not a trivial task either.  
  • The larger the hole you put in the deck structure, the more flexible the deck will become.  I have no idea how big is "too big" but I do know for sure that a deck without a hole is stronger. For a proper installation the edge of the hole will need some kind of stiffener, the hatch itself is not going to do this.
  • The deck on a SuperMarmau in this area is not flat.  Dealing with even a few mm of curve is a challenge. The bigger the hatch, the more this will be a problem.  Again, not a total deal killer, but something that needs working out.  Be SURE you check the specifications of what ever hatch you are thinking of to be 100% sure it can handle the curve, or have a plan to deal with it.  
  • We keep out dinghy on the aft deck, and would not normally be able to do more than barely crack a deck hatch here, so its ultimate utility would be less than we might have expected.

We found our interest in an added hatch decreased dramatically once we learned how to ventilate the aft cabin efficiently at anchor.  First, close all the hatches EXCEPT the aft facing hatch in the aft cabin.  Open the companionway,  and if you have any kind of cockpit enclosure, the aft side needs to be fully open.  We normally just have our bimini up and this works great like that.  Now the breeze blows over the bimini, and pulls air out of the boat.  The only way for air to get into the boat, is to come in the hatch in aft cabin.  Presto!  You now have a strong breeze across the aft cabin berth, exactly where you want it.

There have also been several descriptions of ways to mount fans in the aft hatch that work well when the boat is in a marina and can not face reliably into the breeze.

We absolutely understand the frustration with the cockpit table on the early SM. It was not one of Amel's finest design solutions!  Our boat came with it, and we installed it once as a test, and then immediately donated it to a worthy cause. The previous owner of our boat built a folding table that works very nicely. He modeled it on the tables that were used on the SM2K and later.  Lots of engineering details for a good result, but no exotic parts. It can seat 3 with good access or if you need to feed a crowd you can unfold it all the way and get 6 close friends seated for dinner.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


 

Bill K,

Well said with lots of detail. I also worry about the structure and stiffness. And because it worked for someone for X years is not proof that it will work for the next person at all. There will be no turning back. 

Michael,

I will add, don't change Henri's design until you have owned your Amel for at least a year. If you follow this rule, you will probably never change much of anything. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 17:15 Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
Michael,

When we first got our SM we thought about adding a hatch to the aft cabin, and are glad we did not.  

There are a number of complications.  
  • First, you are cutting a large hole in a cored deck.  The balsa core needs to be absolutely sealed against water intrusion.  It is certainly possible to do, but is not a trivial task either.  
  • The larger the hole you put in the deck structure, the more flexible the deck will become.  I have no idea how big is "too big" but I do know for sure that a deck without a hole is stronger. For a proper installation the edge of the hole will need some kind of stiffener, the hatch itself is not going to do this.
  • The deck on a SuperMarmau in this area is not flat.  Dealing with even a few mm of curve is a challenge. The bigger the hatch, the more this will be a problem.  Again, not a total deal killer, but something that needs working out.  Be SURE you check the specifications of what ever hatch you are thinking of to be 100% sure it can handle the curve, or have a plan to deal with it.  
  • We keep out dinghy on the aft deck, and would not normally be able to do more than barely crack a deck hatch here, so its ultimate utility would be less than we might have expected.

We found our interest in an added hatch decreased dramatically once we learned how to ventilate the aft cabin efficiently at anchor.  First, close all the hatches EXCEPT the aft facing hatch in the aft cabin.  Open the companionway,  and if you have any kind of cockpit enclosure, the aft side needs to be fully open.  We normally just have our bimini up and this works great like that.  Now the breeze blows over the bimini, and pulls air out of the boat.  The only way for air to get into the boat, is to come in the hatch in aft cabin.  Presto!  You now have a strong breeze across the aft cabin berth, exactly where you want it.

There have also been several descriptions of ways to mount fans in the aft hatch that work well when the boat is in a marina and can not face reliably into the breeze.

We absolutely understand the frustration with the cockpit table on the early SM. It was not one of Amel's finest design solutions!  Our boat came with it, and we installed it once as a test, and then immediately donated it to a worthy cause. The previous owner of our boat built a folding table that works very nicely. He modeled it on the tables that were used on the SM2K and later.  Lots of engineering details for a good result, but no exotic parts. It can seat 3 with good access or if you need to feed a crowd you can unfold it all the way and get 6 close friends seated for dinner.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


Danny and Yvonne SIMMS
 

Good advice Bill, your ventilation plan is new to me but makes absolute sense. I totally agree with your precautionary approach to cutting a large hole in a cored and curved deck.
Kind Regards
Danny
SM 299
Ocean Pearl

On 18/09/2022 03:14 Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:


Michael,

When we first got our SM we thought about adding a hatch to the aft cabin, and are glad we did not.  

There are a number of complications.  
  • First, you are cutting a large hole in a cored deck.  The balsa core needs to be absolutely sealed against water intrusion.  It is certainly possible to do, but is not a trivial task either.  
  • The larger the hole you put in the deck structure, the more flexible the deck will become.  I have no idea how big is "too big" but I do know for sure that a deck without a hole is stronger. For a proper installation the edge of the hole will need some kind of stiffener, the hatch itself is not going to do this.
  • The deck on a SuperMarmau in this area is not flat.  Dealing with even a few mm of curve is a challenge. The bigger the hatch, the more this will be a problem.  Again, not a total deal killer, but something that needs working out.  Be SURE you check the specifications of what ever hatch you are thinking of to be 100% sure it can handle the curve, or have a plan to deal with it.  
  • We keep out dinghy on the aft deck, and would not normally be able to do more than barely crack a deck hatch here, so its ultimate utility would be less than we might have expected.

We found our interest in an added hatch decreased dramatically once we learned how to ventilate the aft cabin efficiently at anchor.  First, close all the hatches EXCEPT the aft facing hatch in the aft cabin.  Open the companionway,  and if you have any kind of cockpit enclosure, the aft side needs to be fully open.  We normally just have our bimini up and this works great like that.  Now the breeze blows over the bimini, and pulls air out of the boat.  The only way for air to get into the boat, is to come in the hatch in aft cabin.  Presto!  You now have a strong breeze across the aft cabin berth, exactly where you want it.

There have also been several descriptions of ways to mount fans in the aft hatch that work well when the boat is in a marina and can not face reliably into the breeze.

We absolutely understand the frustration with the cockpit table on the early SM. It was not one of Amel's finest design solutions!  Our boat came with it, and we installed it once as a test, and then immediately donated it to a worthy cause. The previous owner of our boat built a folding table that works very nicely. He modeled it on the tables that were used on the SM2K and later.  Lots of engineering details for a good result, but no exotic parts. It can seat 3 with good access or if you need to feed a crowd you can unfold it all the way and get 6 close friends seated for dinner.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


Patrick McAneny
 

Michael, I have had my SM for about 16 years, about a year after buying it I installed a hatch above the bed a few inches aft of the bulkhead . It was the best improvement for increased comfort and ventilation that could be made, and it is nice to watch the sky and clouds move above at night. I cannot sleep if I am hot ,and with the hatch we often need to barely have it open to have a nice breeze blow over us all night. When we enter the aft cabin the first thing we do is to open the hatch, it  expels all the hot air in seconds. As Bill noted , it is  important to seal the core just like in all the other holes in the deck. I have walked all around the hatch hundreds of times and don't believe that the hatch has compromised the structural integrity to any great degree, any more than all the other hatches and openings in the boat. I am sure they now probably install aft hatches in the new boats. 
You don't need a large hatch to provide all the air you will want. While the deck is not flat, the curvature is not enough to create a problem with sealing the frame, once again a smaller hatch is better. Be sure to seal everything well and you will enjoy the comfort of being cool ,rather than hot. We have slept with it closed many times ,using only the aft hatch ,no comparison and I don't like fans. If I had it to do over again, I would install it again in a heartbeat.
Good Luck,
Pat
SM Shenanigans
Sassafras River, Md.


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Fuchs <fuchsmi@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io Group Moderators <main@amelyachtowners.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Sep 16, 2022 1:22 am
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] SM additional aft hatch and cockpit table

Hello!


I'm looking for inspiration on two topics for my early SM:

1) Aft cabin extra hatch above the bed. I remember I saw some pictures but I can't find them any more. What size did you take? Any recommendations?

2) I have the large cockpit table which is stored downstairs. I would like to add a new tabe which is easier stored away like the one from the 54. How did you solve this?

Thank you very much!
Michael
-
SM#75 Eden (soon "Sulair II")


Michael Fuchs
 

Thanks all for your input. 

As this is a modification that can't be undone - don't change Henri's design until I have owned my Amel for at least a year is an advice I can take easily. Even though it will stay on my wish list near the top.

Thanks all,
Michael



On Sat, 17 Sept 2022 at 17:29, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Bill K,

Well said with lots of detail. I also worry about the structure and stiffness. And because it worked for someone for X years is not proof that it will work for the next person at all. There will be no turning back. 

Michael,

I will add, don't change Henri's design until you have owned your Amel for at least a year. If you follow this rule, you will probably never change much of anything. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 17:15 Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
Michael,

When we first got our SM we thought about adding a hatch to the aft cabin, and are glad we did not.  

There are a number of complications.  
  • First, you are cutting a large hole in a cored deck.  The balsa core needs to be absolutely sealed against water intrusion.  It is certainly possible to do, but is not a trivial task either.  
  • The larger the hole you put in the deck structure, the more flexible the deck will become.  I have no idea how big is "too big" but I do know for sure that a deck without a hole is stronger. For a proper installation the edge of the hole will need some kind of stiffener, the hatch itself is not going to do this.
  • The deck on a SuperMarmau in this area is not flat.  Dealing with even a few mm of curve is a challenge. The bigger the hatch, the more this will be a problem.  Again, not a total deal killer, but something that needs working out.  Be SURE you check the specifications of what ever hatch you are thinking of to be 100% sure it can handle the curve, or have a plan to deal with it.  
  • We keep out dinghy on the aft deck, and would not normally be able to do more than barely crack a deck hatch here, so its ultimate utility would be less than we might have expected.

We found our interest in an added hatch decreased dramatically once we learned how to ventilate the aft cabin efficiently at anchor.  First, close all the hatches EXCEPT the aft facing hatch in the aft cabin.  Open the companionway,  and if you have any kind of cockpit enclosure, the aft side needs to be fully open.  We normally just have our bimini up and this works great like that.  Now the breeze blows over the bimini, and pulls air out of the boat.  The only way for air to get into the boat, is to come in the hatch in aft cabin.  Presto!  You now have a strong breeze across the aft cabin berth, exactly where you want it.

There have also been several descriptions of ways to mount fans in the aft hatch that work well when the boat is in a marina and can not face reliably into the breeze.

We absolutely understand the frustration with the cockpit table on the early SM. It was not one of Amel's finest design solutions!  Our boat came with it, and we installed it once as a test, and then immediately donated it to a worthy cause. The previous owner of our boat built a folding table that works very nicely. He modeled it on the tables that were used on the SM2K and later.  Lots of engineering details for a good result, but no exotic parts. It can seat 3 with good access or if you need to feed a crowd you can unfold it all the way and get 6 close friends seated for dinner.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


 

Michael.

It was on Amel's wish list also and completed with the introduction of the 54.😀
And, it was on my wish list for the 12 years we owned a SM, but wishing and doing are separate things. I remain concerned about the structural issues.

Bill



CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 1:17 PM Michael Fuchs <fuchsmi@...> wrote:
Thanks all for your input. 

As this is a modification that can't be undone - don't change Henri's design until I have owned my Amel for at least a year is an advice I can take easily. Even though it will stay on my wish list near the top.

Thanks all,
Michael



On Sat, 17 Sept 2022 at 17:29, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Bill K,

Well said with lots of detail. I also worry about the structure and stiffness. And because it worked for someone for X years is not proof that it will work for the next person at all. There will be no turning back. 

Michael,

I will add, don't change Henri's design until you have owned your Amel for at least a year. If you follow this rule, you will probably never change much of anything. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 17:15 Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
Michael,

When we first got our SM we thought about adding a hatch to the aft cabin, and are glad we did not.  

There are a number of complications.  
  • First, you are cutting a large hole in a cored deck.  The balsa core needs to be absolutely sealed against water intrusion.  It is certainly possible to do, but is not a trivial task either.  
  • The larger the hole you put in the deck structure, the more flexible the deck will become.  I have no idea how big is "too big" but I do know for sure that a deck without a hole is stronger. For a proper installation the edge of the hole will need some kind of stiffener, the hatch itself is not going to do this.
  • The deck on a SuperMarmau in this area is not flat.  Dealing with even a few mm of curve is a challenge. The bigger the hatch, the more this will be a problem.  Again, not a total deal killer, but something that needs working out.  Be SURE you check the specifications of what ever hatch you are thinking of to be 100% sure it can handle the curve, or have a plan to deal with it.  
  • We keep out dinghy on the aft deck, and would not normally be able to do more than barely crack a deck hatch here, so its ultimate utility would be less than we might have expected.

We found our interest in an added hatch decreased dramatically once we learned how to ventilate the aft cabin efficiently at anchor.  First, close all the hatches EXCEPT the aft facing hatch in the aft cabin.  Open the companionway,  and if you have any kind of cockpit enclosure, the aft side needs to be fully open.  We normally just have our bimini up and this works great like that.  Now the breeze blows over the bimini, and pulls air out of the boat.  The only way for air to get into the boat, is to come in the hatch in aft cabin.  Presto!  You now have a strong breeze across the aft cabin berth, exactly where you want it.

There have also been several descriptions of ways to mount fans in the aft hatch that work well when the boat is in a marina and can not face reliably into the breeze.

We absolutely understand the frustration with the cockpit table on the early SM. It was not one of Amel's finest design solutions!  Our boat came with it, and we installed it once as a test, and then immediately donated it to a worthy cause. The previous owner of our boat built a folding table that works very nicely. He modeled it on the tables that were used on the SM2K and later.  Lots of engineering details for a good result, but no exotic parts. It can seat 3 with good access or if you need to feed a crowd you can unfold it all the way and get 6 close friends seated for dinner.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com


Patrick McAneny
 

Bill, 
I don't understand how a hatch installed a few inches aft of a bulkhead  would introduce a threat to the structural integrity anymore than the four other hatches in the salon ,head , aft cabin and v-berth area. All of those hatches  are more likely to experience breaking seas.  All the four huge storage openings on the deck also constitutes holes in the deck ,the aft  area is probably ten times as big as my hatch and much more prone to a breaking wave. They cut holes in structural girders all the time and the load stress bypasses the holes .I just don't think it is a valid concern. I think  the comfort it provides far out ways any concern I would  have. I can't imagine not having a aft hatch above the berth ,any more  than not having the hatches in the salon ,head or v-berth . Amel must have felt it was worth installing aft hatches as they now install them in their newer designs, too bad they did not install it in the SM from the factory ,then no one would question the wisdom of doing so  ,or be concerned about the structure.
If one was really had any concern ,the forward end is next to the bulkhead , (unlike the salon hatch ) one could easily glass in & lay up additional  longitudinal  support just aft of the hatch and cover it with a hollowed  out mahogany false beam , but that would be unnecessary in my opinion. Some may not agree ,I am not an engineer , but I have been building homes and other structures for 55 years and have never had a structural failure yet , and my gut tells me I am not going to have one.
Respectfully Yours,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message--
From: CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...>
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Sep 20, 2022 2:26 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] SM additional aft hatch and cockpit table

Michael.

It was on Amel's wish list also and completed with the introduction of the 54.😀
And, it was on my wish list for the 12 years we owned a SM, but wishing and doing are separate things. I remain concerned about the structural issues.

Bill



CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 1:17 PM Michael Fuchs <fuchsmi@...> wrote:
Thanks all for your input. 

As this is a modification that can't be undone - don't change Henri's design until I have owned my Amel for at least a year is an advice I can take easily. Even though it will stay on my wish list near the top.

Thanks all,
Michael



On Sat, 17 Sept 2022 at 17:29, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
Bill K,

Well said with lots of detail. I also worry about the structure and stiffness. And because it worked for someone for X years is not proof that it will work for the next person at all. There will be no turning back. 

Michael,

I will add, don't change Henri's design until you have owned your Amel for at least a year. If you follow this rule, you will probably never change much of anything. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022, 17:15 Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
Michael,

When we first got our SM we thought about adding a hatch to the aft cabin, and are glad we did not.  

There are a number of complications.  
  • First, you are cutting a large hole in a cored deck.  The balsa core needs to be absolutely sealed against water intrusion.  It is certainly possible to do, but is not a trivial task either.  
  • The larger the hole you put in the deck structure, the more flexible the deck will become.  I have no idea how big is "too big" but I do know for sure that a deck without a hole is stronger. For a proper installation the edge of the hole will need some kind of stiffener, the hatch itself is not going to do this.
  • The deck on a SuperMarmau in this area is not flat.  Dealing with even a few mm of curve is a challenge. The bigger the hatch, the more this will be a problem.  Again, not a total deal killer, but something that needs working out.  Be SURE you check the specifications of what ever hatch you are thinking of to be 100% sure it can handle the curve, or have a plan to deal with it.  
  • We keep out dinghy on the aft deck, and would not normally be able to do more than barely crack a deck hatch here, so its ultimate utility would be less than we might have expected.

We found our interest in an added hatch decreased dramatically once we learned how to ventilate the aft cabin efficiently at anchor.  First, close all the hatches EXCEPT the aft facing hatch in the aft cabin.  Open the companionway,  and if you have any kind of cockpit enclosure, the aft side needs to be fully open.  We normally just have our bimini up and this works great like that.  Now the breeze blows over the bimini, and pulls air out of the boat.  The only way for air to get into the boat, is to come in the hatch in aft cabin.  Presto!  You now have a strong breeze across the aft cabin berth, exactly where you want it.

There have also been several descriptions of ways to mount fans in the aft hatch that work well when the boat is in a marina and can not face reliably into the breeze.

We absolutely understand the frustration with the cockpit table on the early SM. It was not one of Amel's finest design solutions!  Our boat came with it, and we installed it once as a test, and then immediately donated it to a worthy cause. The previous owner of our boat built a folding table that works very nicely. He modeled it on the tables that were used on the SM2K and later.  Lots of engineering details for a good result, but no exotic parts. It can seat 3 with good access or if you need to feed a crowd you can unfold it all the way and get 6 close friends seated for dinner.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada
http://www.cruisingconsulting.com