Standing Rigging replacement


Dan Wilcox
 

I  have a Rigor up the mast today checking on connections.  One thing he asked was if it's recommended to replace the "tangs" (looped metal at mast side of spreaders).  Are these normally replaced, and can be purchased at Amel?

Thanks, Dan Wilcox
Feierabend, SM #86


Ian Park
 

My Santorin doesn’t have ‘looped tangs’ at the spreaders. The rigging is attached by an eye swage to the bolt that attaches the spreader to the welded mast sections. I’d assumed that all SMS had the same mast construction.
This is a pretty bullet proof mast.




Ian ‘Ocean Hobo’


 

Dan,

Is the rigger talking about the U-shaped Spreader Hanger that attaches to 2 tangs that are welded to the mast?  
I would say that they should be inspected and replaced if needed. One other note. 
The stainless steel bolt that holds this together should be inspected as noted below.
image.png


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 5:27 PM Dan Wilcox via groups.io <dwilcox123=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I  have a Rigor up the mast today checking on connections.  One thing he asked was if it's recommended to replace the "tangs" (looped metal at mast side of spreaders).  Are these normally replaced, and can be purchased at Amel?

Thanks, Dan Wilcox
Feierabend, SM #86


Dan Wilcox
 

Yep the U shaped spreader hanger.(picture was perfect)

Do you know if they can be ordered from Amel?

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend SM#86

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 09:13:40 AM PDT, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


Dan,

Is the rigger talking about the U-shaped Spreader Hanger that attaches to 2 tangs that are welded to the mast?  
I would say that they should be inspected and replaced if needed. One other note. 
The stainless steel bolt that holds this together should be inspected as noted below.
image.png


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 5:27 PM Dan Wilcox via groups.io <dwilcox123=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I  have a Rigor up the mast today checking on connections.  One thing he asked was if it's recommended to replace the "tangs" (looped metal at mast side of spreaders).  Are these normally replaced, and can be purchased at Amel?

Thanks, Dan Wilcox
Feierabend, SM #86


Bill Kinney
 

Dan,

In a saltwater environment any piece of stainless steel, no matter how well formulated, has a finite life.  The warmer the climate, and the saltier the water, the shorter the life.  The issue with this kind of failure is it is almost impossible to detect before the piece of metal fails. 

Pieces of stainless up the mast, naturally live in a less “salty” environment than similar pieces near the deck. Pieces that were formed by bending or welding are more likely to fail.  Pieces with shapes that have threads of other sharp edges are more likely to fail.

When putting a new rig on an oceangoing boat, I would recommend replacing every piece of stainless steel possible.  No amount of looking and inspecting can be 100% proof against stress cracking. Bronze and aluminum don’t fail this way, so aren’t the same problem.

No part of the standing rigging, but here is a good example:  https://fetchinketch.net/2019/07/26/failure-analysis/

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada.


Dan Wilcox
 

Thank you both very much.  We are still years away from our planned circumnavigation, but repairing the boat  correctly is very important to me. Still looks good, but I'm going to replace this fall.

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend SM #86

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:57:04 AM PDT, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:


Dan,

In a saltwater environment any piece of stainless steel, no matter how well formulated, has a finite life.  The warmer the climate, and the saltier the water, the shorter the life.  The issue with this kind of failure is it is almost impossible to detect before the piece of metal fails. 

Pieces of stainless up the mast, naturally live in a less “salty” environment than similar pieces near the deck. Pieces that were formed by bending or welding are more likely to fail.  Pieces with shapes that have threads of other sharp edges are more likely to fail.

When putting a new rig on an oceangoing boat, I would recommend replacing every piece of stainless steel possible.  No amount of looking and inspecting can be 100% proof against stress cracking. Bronze and aluminum don’t fail this way, so aren’t the same problem.

No part of the standing rigging, but here is a good example:  https://fetchinketch.net/2019/07/26/failure-analysis/

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada.


 

I believe the U shape end piece on the spreader is aluminum. Are you sure it is stainless steel? I thought the only stainless steel in that area is the all of the standing rigging terminal and the bolt (which in this photo is broken).

I am not sure how this spreader end piece is attached to the spreader.

I'll try to get an answer from an Amel-experienced rigger.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 13:13 Dan Wilcox via groups.io <dwilcox123=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thank you both very much.  We are still years away from our planned circumnavigation, but repairing the boat  correctly is very important to me. Still looks good, but I'm going to replace this fall.

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend SM #86

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:57:04 AM PDT, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:


Dan,

In a saltwater environment any piece of stainless steel, no matter how well formulated, has a finite life.  The warmer the climate, and the saltier the water, the shorter the life.  The issue with this kind of failure is it is almost impossible to detect before the piece of metal fails. 

Pieces of stainless up the mast, naturally live in a less “salty” environment than similar pieces near the deck. Pieces that were formed by bending or welding are more likely to fail.  Pieces with shapes that have threads of other sharp edges are more likely to fail.

When putting a new rig on an oceangoing boat, I would recommend replacing every piece of stainless steel possible.  No amount of looking and inspecting can be 100% proof against stress cracking. Bronze and aluminum don’t fail this way, so aren’t the same problem.

No part of the standing rigging, but here is a good example:  https://fetchinketch.net/2019/07/26/failure-analysis/

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada.


 

I verified that the U-shaped end piece on the mast-end of the Spreader is solid aluminum. I am not sure how it is permanently attached to the aluminum spreader tube, but logic dictates that it is welded.

I think this whole conversation regarding this end piece was started by a rigger who has no idea how Amel made and attached spreaders. I will politely state to stay away from any rigger who has limited knowledge of Amel.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 1:42 PM Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
I believe the U shape end piece on the spreader is aluminum. Are you sure it is stainless steel? I thought the only stainless steel in that area is the all of the standing rigging terminal and the bolt (which in this photo is broken).

I am not sure how this spreader end piece is attached to the spreader.

I'll try to get an answer from an Amel-experienced rigger.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 13:13 Dan Wilcox via groups.io <dwilcox123=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thank you both very much.  We are still years away from our planned circumnavigation, but repairing the boat  correctly is very important to me. Still looks good, but I'm going to replace this fall.

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend SM #86

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:57:04 AM PDT, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:


Dan,

In a saltwater environment any piece of stainless steel, no matter how well formulated, has a finite life.  The warmer the climate, and the saltier the water, the shorter the life.  The issue with this kind of failure is it is almost impossible to detect before the piece of metal fails. 

Pieces of stainless up the mast, naturally live in a less “salty” environment than similar pieces near the deck. Pieces that were formed by bending or welding are more likely to fail.  Pieces with shapes that have threads of other sharp edges are more likely to fail.

When putting a new rig on an oceangoing boat, I would recommend replacing every piece of stainless steel possible.  No amount of looking and inspecting can be 100% proof against stress cracking. Bronze and aluminum don’t fail this way, so aren’t the same problem.

No part of the standing rigging, but here is a good example:  https://fetchinketch.net/2019/07/26/failure-analysis/

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada.


Dan Wilcox
 


I was up the mast and took some pictures of the pieces I was asking about.  They are definitely stainless steel.  Do people replace these too when rerigging (if no visible cracks are present)?

Inline image

Sorry for the dirt in the picture, I cleaned right after I took it :)

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend SM#86

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 09:20:14 AM PDT, CW Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:


I verified that the U-shaped end piece on the mast-end of the Spreader is solid aluminum. I am not sure how it is permanently attached to the aluminum spreader tube, but logic dictates that it is welded.

I think this whole conversation regarding this end piece was started by a rigger who has no idea how Amel made and attached spreaders. I will politely state to stay away from any rigger who has limited knowledge of Amel.

Bill


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 1:42 PM Bill Rouse <brouse@...> wrote:
I believe the U shape end piece on the spreader is aluminum. Are you sure it is stainless steel? I thought the only stainless steel in that area is the all of the standing rigging terminal and the bolt (which in this photo is broken).

I am not sure how this spreader end piece is attached to the spreader.

I'll try to get an answer from an Amel-experienced rigger.

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   

On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 13:13 Dan Wilcox via groups.io <dwilcox123=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Thank you both very much.  We are still years away from our planned circumnavigation, but repairing the boat  correctly is very important to me. Still looks good, but I'm going to replace this fall.

Thanks, Dan
Feierabend SM #86

On Thursday, July 14, 2022 at 10:57:04 AM PDT, Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:


Dan,

In a saltwater environment any piece of stainless steel, no matter how well formulated, has a finite life.  The warmer the climate, and the saltier the water, the shorter the life.  The issue with this kind of failure is it is almost impossible to detect before the piece of metal fails. 

Pieces of stainless up the mast, naturally live in a less “salty” environment than similar pieces near the deck. Pieces that were formed by bending or welding are more likely to fail.  Pieces with shapes that have threads of other sharp edges are more likely to fail.

When putting a new rig on an oceangoing boat, I would recommend replacing every piece of stainless steel possible.  No amount of looking and inspecting can be 100% proof against stress cracking. Bronze and aluminum don’t fail this way, so aren’t the same problem.

No part of the standing rigging, but here is a good example:  https://fetchinketch.net/2019/07/26/failure-analysis/

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis, Grenada.


Ian Fraser
 

Dan,

I'm about to replace standing rigging on Amel 54#009 with new ACMO wire, turnbuckles, etc, but face the same question on the bent stainless steel "tangs" that you were asking about. Did you replace in the end or just use the old ones. Would be interested to know if Amel supply replacements and if so what is the Stainless 304, 216...etc.? Same question with the bolts that secure the tang to the mast/spreader.

Thanks for any feedback and happy sailing.

Ian
Dreamtime A54009


Scott SV Tengah
 

We used the old ones. You have an earlier model (like us), so you will need to upgrade your lower shrouds on the main mast from 10mm to 12mm. This will require drilling out the old tangs as the pin that goes through the eye for the 12mm is a bit larger than the one for 10mm.

You will also need to upgrade your main mast intermediates from 8mm to 10mm.

This is what Amel did for the later A54s due to one sister ship losing its rig off in the South Pacific.

If you are planning extensive sailing (aka circumnavigation), I would highly recommend also changing your mizzen D1 from 7mm to 8mm.

Finally, whatever you do, get the stainless sleeved turnbuckles. There have been some issues with the chrome plating for a few owners. 

Who is doing your rigging? 

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Ian Fraser
 

Thanks Scott. 

Under advice from Bill we got the upgrades to the main intermediates and lowers. Can’t remember hearing about the mizzen D1 upgrade from 7-8mm, so we ended up with the 7mm, but we will keep an eye on them. It does look like the triatic “Marocain" has been upgraded from 7-8mm also.

We got the recommended upgraded turnbuckles, which are described on the invoice as “Stainless Steel Ringued Bronze Turnbuckle”. Are these what you call "stainless sleeved”?

Interesting to hear that you needed to drill the old tangs to fit the pins on the new 12mm eye. I had asked ACMO if we would need to drill chainplates and they indicated that they had sized the pins to avoid this but will be interested to see when we do it!

Plan to use one of the riggers in Antigua……any hints on what to look out for?

Ian
A54#009



On 11 Sep 2022, at 18:51, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

We used the old ones. You have an earlier model (like us), so you will need to upgrade your lower shrouds on the main mast from 10mm to 12mm. This will require drilling out the old tangs as the pin that goes through the eye for the 12mm is a bit larger than the one for 10mm.

You will also need to upgrade your main mast intermediates from 8mm to 10mm.

This is what Amel did for the later A54s due to one sister ship losing its rig off in the South Pacific.

If you are planning extensive sailing (aka circumnavigation), I would highly recommend also changing your mizzen D1 from 7mm to 8mm.

Finally, whatever you do, get the stainless sleeved turnbuckles. There have been some issues with the chrome plating for a few owners. 

Who is doing your rigging? 

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Nick Newington
 

Hi Ian,

I asked ACMO about drilling out the pin holes and they said there is no need as they have specified a stronger material for the pins…..same as you.

I got a quote from ACMO a couple of years ago, and was about to order but changed my mind, when I got a reply to a specific question posed to Amel about the upgrade. Amel said it was not necessary. They were very clear, they said that the calculations have been checked and the original specs were fine… I did explain that I had renewed all the rigging in 2017 when I bought the boat but like for like. 

So I don’t know what to think. I have been keeping an eye.. 

As for upgrading the mizzen to 8mm; why? 

Kind regards

Nick Newington

Amelia

Back in the water in Lakki town Leros


On 12 Sep 2022, at 15:17, Ian Fraser <keyproperties@...> wrote:

Thanks Scott. 

Under advice from Bill we got the upgrades to the main intermediates and lowers. Can’t remember hearing about the mizzen D1 upgrade from 7-8mm, so we ended up with the 7mm, but we will keep an eye on them. It does look like the triatic “Marocain" has been upgraded from 7-8mm also.

We got the recommended upgraded turnbuckles, which are described on the invoice as “Stainless Steel Ringued Bronze Turnbuckle”. Are these what you call "stainless sleeved”?

Interesting to hear that you needed to drill the old tangs to fit the pins on the new 12mm eye. I had asked ACMO if we would need to drill chainplates and they indicated that they had sized the pins to avoid this but will be interested to see when we do it!

Plan to use one of the riggers in Antigua……any hints on what to look out for?

Ian
A54#009



On 11 Sep 2022, at 18:51, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

We used the old ones. You have an earlier model (like us), so you will need to upgrade your lower shrouds on the main mast from 10mm to 12mm. This will require drilling out the old tangs as the pin that goes through the eye for the 12mm is a bit larger than the one for 10mm.

You will also need to upgrade your main mast intermediates from 8mm to 10mm.

This is what Amel did for the later A54s due to one sister ship losing its rig off in the South Pacific.

If you are planning extensive sailing (aka circumnavigation), I would highly recommend also changing your mizzen D1 from 7mm to 8mm.

Finally, whatever you do, get the stainless sleeved turnbuckles. There have been some issues with the chrome plating for a few owners. 

Who is doing your rigging? 

-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com



Nick Newington
 

Here is the reply from Amel back in 2019

From: Mail SAV AMEL <sav@...>
Date: 18 June 2019 at 17:53:07 EEST
To: Nick <ngtnewington@...>
Subject: Rigging for 54

Dear Nick, 

I think that I have never answered your question below . 

What you say about the rigging specification is true. The diameters of the main mast lower shrouds and the intermediate shrouds have been increased. 
In your case you should not worry about it, if you have the first model of rigging with a smaller diameter it is fine,  as the axis and the turnbuckles also have the good size. 

The size of the axis and turnbuckles have  also been modified to match with the new cables. 

In short, It is better to have kept the original cables dimensions with the original axis and turnbuckles. 

Let me know if you need any further details. 

With my kindest regards, 

Maud TOUI6+LLET
Service clientèle/Customer service
sav@...
Phone : +33 (0) 546 55 00 75


On 12 Sep 2022, at 15:32, Nick Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:

Hi Ian,

I asked ACMO about drilling out the pin holes and they said there is no need as they have specified a stronger material for the pins…..same as you.

I got a quote from ACMO a couple of years ago, and was about to order but changed my mind, when I got a reply to a specific question posed to Amel about the upgrade. Amel said it was not necessary. They were very clear, they said that the calculations have been checked and the original specs were fine… I did explain that I had renewed all the rigging in 2017 when I bought the boat but like for like. 

So I don’t know what to think. I have been keeping an eye.. 

As for upgrading the mizzen to 8mm; why? 

Kind regards

Nick Newington

Amelia

Back in the water in Lakki town Leros


On 12 Sep 2022, at 15:17, Ian Fraser <keyproperties@...> wrote:

Thanks Scott. 

Under advice from Bill we got the upgrades to the main intermediates and lowers. Can’t remember hearing about the mizzen D1 upgrade from 7-8mm, so we ended up with the 7mm, but we will keep an eye on them. It does look like the triatic “Marocain" has been upgraded from 7-8mm also.

We got the recommended upgraded turnbuckles, which are described on the invoice as “Stainless Steel Ringued Bronze Turnbuckle”. Are these what you call "stainless sleeved”?

Interesting to hear that you needed to drill the old tangs to fit the pins on the new 12mm eye. I had asked ACMO if we would need to drill chainplates and they indicated that they had sized the pins to avoid this but will be interested to see when we do it!

Plan to use one of the riggers in Antigua……any hints on what to look out for?

Ian
A54#009



On 11 Sep 2022, at 18:51, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

We used the old ones. You have an earlier model (like us), so you will need to upgrade your lower shrouds on the main mast from 10mm to 12mm. This will require drilling out the old tangs as the pin that goes through the eye for the 12mm is a bit larger than the one for 10mm.

You will also need to upgrade your main mast intermediates from 8mm to 10mm.

This is what Amel did for the later A54s due to one sister ship losing its rig off in the South Pacific.

If you are planning extensive sailing (aka circumnavigation), I would highly recommend also changing your mizzen D1 from 7mm to 8mm.

Finally, whatever you do, get the stainless sleeved turnbuckles. There have been some issues with the chrome plating for a few owners. 

Who is doing your rigging? 

-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com




Ian Fraser
 

Thanks for the feedback Nick. I suspect we are all in danger of overthinking this, but perhaps worth it for peace of mind. I will discuss these points and those raised by Teun on the cap shroud main mast attachment lug with my rigger.

After all is said and done, it seems the A54 rig has a good track record.

Regards,

Ian 

On 12 Sep 2022, at 08:32, Nick Newington via groups.io <ngtnewington@...> wrote:

Hi Ian,

I asked ACMO about drilling out the pin holes and they said there is no need as they have specified a stronger material for the pins…..same as you.

I got a quote from ACMO a couple of years ago, and was about to order but changed my mind, when I got a reply to a specific question posed to Amel about the upgrade. Amel said it was not necessary. They were very clear, they said that the calculations have been checked and the original specs were fine… I did explain that I had renewed all the rigging in 2017 when I bought the boat but like for like. 

So I don’t know what to think. I have been keeping an eye.. 

As for upgrading the mizzen to 8mm; why? 

Kind regards

Nick Newington

Amelia

Back in the water in Lakki town Leros


On 12 Sep 2022, at 15:17, Ian Fraser <keyproperties@...> wrote:

Thanks Scott. 

Under advice from Bill we got the upgrades to the main intermediates and lowers. Can’t remember hearing about the mizzen D1 upgrade from 7-8mm, so we ended up with the 7mm, but we will keep an eye on them. It does look like the triatic “Marocain" has been upgraded from 7-8mm also.

We got the recommended upgraded turnbuckles, which are described on the invoice as “Stainless Steel Ringued Bronze Turnbuckle”. Are these what you call "stainless sleeved”?

Interesting to hear that you needed to drill the old tangs to fit the pins on the new 12mm eye. I had asked ACMO if we would need to drill chainplates and they indicated that they had sized the pins to avoid this but will be interested to see when we do it!

Plan to use one of the riggers in Antigua……any hints on what to look out for?

Ian
A54#009



On 11 Sep 2022, at 18:51, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

We used the old ones. You have an earlier model (like us), so you will need to upgrade your lower shrouds on the main mast from 10mm to 12mm. This will require drilling out the old tangs as the pin that goes through the eye for the 12mm is a bit larger than the one for 10mm.

You will also need to upgrade your main mast intermediates from 8mm to 10mm.

This is what Amel did for the later A54s due to one sister ship losing its rig off in the South Pacific.

If you are planning extensive sailing (aka circumnavigation), I would highly recommend also changing your mizzen D1 from 7mm to 8mm.

Finally, whatever you do, get the stainless sleeved turnbuckles. There have been some issues with the chrome plating for a few owners. 

Who is doing your rigging? 

-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com




Scott SV Tengah
 

See other post about why I upgraded to 8mm for the mizzen D1s. 
#65505  

Regarding the turnbuckles, yes, you're right. I think I'm losing my own English speaking ability after using Google Translate too much with the French suppliers!

I would recommend going to Caraibe Greement in Martinique. While you can't expect anyone to be perfect, they know Amels very well and moreover, when things don't go perfectly, they stand behind their work. I can't say that about all of the other tradesmen I have paid in the past!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Ian Fraser
 

HaHa….thanks for the confirmation. 

On 12 Sep 2022, at 09:20, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

See other post about why I upgraded to 8mm for the mizzen D1s. 
#65505  

Regarding the turnbuckles, yes, you're right. I think I'm losing my own English speaking ability after using Google Translate too much with the French suppliers!

I would recommend going to Caraibe Greement in Martinique. While you can't expect anyone to be perfect, they know Amels very well and moreover, when things don't go perfectly, they stand behind their work. I can't say that about all of the other tradesmen I have paid in the past!

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Nick Newington
 

I know this particular horse has been well flogged. I am still in two minds about the need to upgrade the main mast standing rigging. I have decided not to for the moment.  If I was changing the whole rig then I would for sure.

I am more inclined to focus on:

1.  not overloading the boat. If the designed fully laden boat is 20 tons then it should not be loaded to 22 tons or more. If you do this then the vessel will be stiffer and the loads imposed on the rig greater. This would then throw out all the stress and stability calculations for the vessel.

2.  regularly inspect the rig and all the fittings. Cotter pins etc. several times a year and certainly after a hard sail. 

3. avoid a halyard wrap. If one occurs a very thorough inspection of the forestay swage and wire just below.

4. clearly in strong upwind conditions in big seas, keep the speed down to reduce severe pounding. 

I do not know the exact circumstances of the 54 dismasting, I believe it was near Easter Island. Did the wire really strand due to being undersized? More than likely it was a cracked fitting or a poor swage terminal that failed? I do not know and suspect that nobody knows for sure. If that is the case upping the wire diameter would make no difference apart from adding a bit of weight aloft.

Nick

S/Y Amelia

Aml 54-019 

Lakki Leros Gr.






On 12 Sep 2022, at 16:26, Ian Fraser <keyproperties@...> wrote:

HaHa….thanks for the confirmation. 

On 12 Sep 2022, at 09:20, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

See other post about why I upgraded to 8mm for the mizzen D1s. 
#65505  

Regarding the turnbuckles, yes, you're right. I think I'm losing my own English speaking ability after using Google Translate too much with the French suppliers!

I would recommend going to Caraibe Greement in Martinique. While you can't expect anyone to be perfect, they know Amels very well and moreover, when things don't go perfectly, they stand behind their work. I can't say that about all of the other tradesmen I have paid in the past!

-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com



Scott SV Tengah
 

Nick et al.,

 

Everyone should make their own determination as to what is appropriate for their own vessel but I do have some opinions here as I am currently in the process of replacing shrouds with broken strands in a not-ideal place. Thankfully I caught them before our passage to New Zealand.

 

No one knows the particular reasons why #46 broke both main mast D1 wires and subsequently damaged their mast so badly that they had to have a new mast shipped to them in the South Pacific. That said, this incident occurred in 2014, after Amel spec’d later model A54s to the larger 12mm D1 and 10mm intermediates on the main mast, so this particular falure did NOT drive Amel’s upsizing decision. This boat had not been upgraded as it was an earlier build.

 

For me, on a 4+ year circumnavigation so far with many more years ahead of us and shortly entering areas such as Solomons and further afield, my risk tolerance for losing a mast is very low. It seems you spend most of your time in the Med and if I was in that situation, close to good repair facilities, supplies, provisioning and rescue, maybe my calculus would be different. I do not expect to find good riggers in Papua New Guinea, but perhaps I am unfairly maligning that country.

 

I personally know the owners or family members of Four A54s in the South Pacific that have broken D1s. All were the original 10mm spec’d wires.

1) A54 found broken main mast D1 strands, thankfully in a place where they could replace them.

2) Me

3) The aforementioned Easter island near dismasting

4) A54 that lost both main mast D1s on a 7000+ mile covid era passage. With a family with young children aboard, they had to sail for 1500nm+ through the Indian Ocean (guess Chagos doesn’t have a good rigger?) with a main mast that looked like a wet noodle, through the Indian ocean.

 

Notwithstanding SAV’s response, I think given the fact that Amel upgraded later A54 specs and I personally know 4 A54s with broken 10mm D1s, it would be prudent to upgrade to 12mm main mast D1s if you plan to go further afield. I am also upgrading my mizzen D1s due to broken strands. Amel does not suggest that, but a well respected Amel rigger told me he was always worried that 7mm was too small and my failure confirmed that belief and all future circumnavigating A54s that come to his shop will be told that they should upgrade to 8mm mizzen D1s.

 

Perhaps I will regret adding more weight aloft, but I would definitely regret it if I replaced like with like and experienced the same failures again in even less developed places.

 

From: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of "Nick Newington via groups.io" <ngtnewington@...>
Reply-To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 7:05 AM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Standing Rigging replacement

 

I know this particular horse has been well flogged. I am still in two minds about the need to upgrade the main mast standing rigging. I have decided not to for the moment.  If I was changing the whole rig then I would for sure.

 

I am more inclined to focus on:

 

1.  not overloading the boat. If the designed fully laden boat is 20 tons then it should not be loaded to 22 tons or more. If you do this then the vessel will be stiffer and the loads imposed on the rig greater. This would then throw out all the stress and stability calculations for the vessel.

 

2.  regularly inspect the rig and all the fittings. Cotter pins etc. several times a year and certainly after a hard sail. 

 

3. avoid a halyard wrap. If one occurs a very thorough inspection of the forestay swage and wire just below.

 

4. clearly in strong upwind conditions in big seas, keep the speed down to reduce severe pounding. 

 

I do not know the exact circumstances of the 54 dismasting, I believe it was near Easter Island. Did the wire really strand due to being undersized? More than likely it was a cracked fitting or a poor swage terminal that failed? I do not know and suspect that nobody knows for sure. If that is the case upping the wire diameter would make no difference apart from adding a bit of weight aloft.

 

Nick

 

S/Y Amelia

 

Aml 54-019 

 

Lakki Leros Gr.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 12 Sep 2022, at 16:26, Ian Fraser <keyproperties@...> wrote:

 

HaHa….thanks for the confirmation. 



On 12 Sep 2022, at 09:20, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

 

See other post about why I upgraded to 8mm for the mizzen D1s. 
#65505  

Regarding the turnbuckles, yes, you're right. I think I'm losing my own English speaking ability after using Google Translate too much with the French suppliers!

I would recommend going to Caraibe Greement in Martinique. While you can't expect anyone to be perfect, they know Amels very well and moreover, when things don't go perfectly, they stand behind their work. I can't say that about all of the other tradesmen I have paid in the past!

-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

 

 


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


 

Scott,

Perfect summary. I would add that I recommend following the Amel Changes listed below. Olivier Beaute also recommends these changes. Every Amel-qualified rigger I know recommends these changes.

I sincerely believe that whoever gave Maud that information that she emailed to Nick, was uninformed.
image.png


CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Tue, Sep 13, 2022 at 12:46 AM Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

Nick et al.,

 

Everyone should make their own determination as to what is appropriate for their own vessel but I do have some opinions here as I am currently in the process of replacing shrouds with broken strands in a not-ideal place. Thankfully I caught them before our passage to New Zealand.

 

No one knows the particular reasons why #46 broke both main mast D1 wires and subsequently damaged their mast so badly that they had to have a new mast shipped to them in the South Pacific. That said, this incident occurred in 2014, after Amel spec’d later model A54s to the larger 12mm D1 and 10mm intermediates on the main mast, so this particular falure did NOT drive Amel’s upsizing decision. This boat had not been upgraded as it was an earlier build.

 

For me, on a 4+ year circumnavigation so far with many more years ahead of us and shortly entering areas such as Solomons and further afield, my risk tolerance for losing a mast is very low. It seems you spend most of your time in the Med and if I was in that situation, close to good repair facilities, supplies, provisioning and rescue, maybe my calculus would be different. I do not expect to find good riggers in Papua New Guinea, but perhaps I am unfairly maligning that country.

 

I personally know the owners or family members of Four A54s in the South Pacific that have broken D1s. All were the original 10mm spec’d wires.

1) A54 found broken main mast D1 strands, thankfully in a place where they could replace them.

2) Me

3) The aforementioned Easter island near dismasting

4) A54 that lost both main mast D1s on a 7000+ mile covid era passage. With a family with young children aboard, they had to sail for 1500nm+ through the Indian Ocean (guess Chagos doesn’t have a good rigger?) with a main mast that looked like a wet noodle, through the Indian ocean.

 

Notwithstanding SAV’s response, I think given the fact that Amel upgraded later A54 specs and I personally know 4 A54s with broken 10mm D1s, it would be prudent to upgrade to 12mm main mast D1s if you plan to go further afield. I am also upgrading my mizzen D1s due to broken strands. Amel does not suggest that, but a well respected Amel rigger told me he was always worried that 7mm was too small and my failure confirmed that belief and all future circumnavigating A54s that come to his shop will be told that they should upgrade to 8mm mizzen D1s.

 

Perhaps I will regret adding more weight aloft, but I would definitely regret it if I replaced like with like and experienced the same failures again in even less developed places.

 

From: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of "Nick Newington via groups.io" <ngtnewington=aol.com@groups.io>
Reply-To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 7:05 AM
To: "main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io" <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Standing Rigging replacement

 

I know this particular horse has been well flogged. I am still in two minds about the need to upgrade the main mast standing rigging. I have decided not to for the moment.  If I was changing the whole rig then I would for sure.

 

I am more inclined to focus on:

 

1.  not overloading the boat. If the designed fully laden boat is 20 tons then it should not be loaded to 22 tons or more. If you do this then the vessel will be stiffer and the loads imposed on the rig greater. This would then throw out all the stress and stability calculations for the vessel.

 

2.  regularly inspect the rig and all the fittings. Cotter pins etc. several times a year and certainly after a hard sail. 

 

3. avoid a halyard wrap. If one occurs a very thorough inspection of the forestay swage and wire just below.

 

4. clearly in strong upwind conditions in big seas, keep the speed down to reduce severe pounding. 

 

I do not know the exact circumstances of the 54 dismasting, I believe it was near Easter Island. Did the wire really strand due to being undersized? More than likely it was a cracked fitting or a poor swage terminal that failed? I do not know and suspect that nobody knows for sure. If that is the case upping the wire diameter would make no difference apart from adding a bit of weight aloft.

 

Nick

 

S/Y Amelia

 

Aml 54-019 

 

Lakki Leros Gr.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 12 Sep 2022, at 16:26, Ian Fraser <keyproperties@...> wrote:

 

HaHa….thanks for the confirmation. 



On 12 Sep 2022, at 09:20, Scott SV Tengah <Scott.nguyen@...> wrote:

 

See other post about why I upgraded to 8mm for the mizzen D1s. 
#65505  

Regarding the turnbuckles, yes, you're right. I think I'm losing my own English speaking ability after using Google Translate too much with the French suppliers!

I would recommend going to Caraibe Greement in Martinique. While you can't expect anyone to be perfect, they know Amels very well and moreover, when things don't go perfectly, they stand behind their work. I can't say that about all of the other tradesmen I have paid in the past!

-- 
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com

 

 


--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com