swivels at the anchor


Nick Newington
 

Bruno,

Only my opinion

I do not trust the WAASI POWER BALL. Especially when connected directly to the anchor as shown in the photo. If the wind shifts 90 degrees there will be a tendency to open the jaws and the ball will try to bend as it binds until the anchor has rotated. Look closely at the zoomed in photo and you will see a crack just where the sheer load it at the maximum. 

 There are other swivels that are more robust. Some skippers insert a length of chain between the anchor and swivel. This does solve that problem. From my point of view any extra connector is a potential failure and an added complexity. 

I simply do not have any problems with twisting of the chain. It could be that after two months of nearly daily anchoring I haul out, drop the entire chain and wash out the locker, dry it and re-stack it all. Even then I do not have problems with twisting. The bitter end of the chain is attached to a couple of meters of dyneema which is tied to the D ring attached to the bulk head in the locker. I have noticed that the dyneema gets twists in it. So when I drop all the chain, I untie the dyneema and take out its twists. Presumably as will get to say 90m there are some twists that work their way all the way to the dyneema.

 Furthermore on my previous boat a Bowman 46, which I sailed for 10 years, I set it up with only a shackle, between chain and anchor, she also had a vertical capstan style windlass. Never had a problem, with twisting. Also used the same technique to attach the bitter end of the chain to the boat.

Now on my 54 as the anchor rises, more often than not covered in mud, we drive ahead slowly to rinse the anchor which presents itself to the water flow facing 180 degrees to the stowed position, the stock of my spade anchor is curved so as it approaches the bow roller it rotates 180 degrees and slots in. There is no swivel, it is the curved stock that forces the rotation. A swivel would not help.

I am not convinced of any benefit that a swivel offers. I do not believe it stops twists, possibly it could be useful if anchored in the same spot for weeks with winds or tide that rotates the boat every day…Swivels are necessary on mooring buoys, as the boat may only be attached with 5m length of chain or rope. 

Nick S/Y Amelia aml 54-019 Leros


Joerg Esdorn
 

Nick, I agree with you.  I eliminated the swivel three years ago because the Wasi swivel made me nervous and never had a problem.  Sometimes I need to go slowly backwards to get the Spade to turn correctly but often I do not.  Simple is best!

Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently cruising the Small Isles, Scotland


Bruno COTTE
 

I have not a wasi power ball but an Ultra Swivel … for your information twice the resistance of the chain so only benefits and No risk 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 14 août 2022 à 21:06, Joerg Esdorn via groups.io <jhe1313@...> a écrit :

Nick, I agree with you.  I eliminated the swivel three years ago because the Wasi swivel made me nervous and never had a problem.  Sometimes I need to go slowly backwards to get the Spade to turn correctly but often I do not.  Simple is best!

Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently cruising the Small Isles, Scotland


Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

Different strokes for different folks. But I wouldn't call it a "must have" given how many cruisers go without. We sailed from New England to New Zealand and saw no need for a swivel. After months on anchor in tidal Opua, we considered getting one. We opted to raise the anchor more often and more slowly if needed. Just because load specifications match the chain, does not mean a swivel doesn't introduce other modes of failure to the system. Side loading, crevice corrsion, and inability to properly inspect all come to mind. I'm sure some swivels are better than others and what works for some people doesn't work for others.

Cheers,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy SM23
NZ

On Mon, Aug 15, 2022, 8:10 AM Bruno COTTE <cotte.bruno@...> wrote:
I have not a wasi power ball but an Ultra Swivel … for your information twice the resistance of the chain so only benefits and No risk 

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 14 août 2022 à 21:06, Joerg Esdorn via groups.io <jhe1313=yahoo.com@groups.io> a écrit :

Nick, I agree with you.  I eliminated the swivel three years ago because the Wasi swivel made me nervous and never had a problem.  Sometimes I need to go slowly backwards to get the Spade to turn correctly but often I do not.  Simple is best!

Joerg Esdorn
A55 #53 Kincsem
Currently cruising the Small Isles, Scotland


Dean Gillies
 

Nick,
Your concerns are in fact the reason my Wasi Powerball swivel is stowed somewhere in a locker.
However, I think I will try it at some stage to see if it makes any difference to the twist problem.
I'm skeptical that it will, but I'll give it a try.
Cheers
Dean

Sent from my iPhone X

--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Scott SV Tengah
 

My Powerball was bent at the same location as Nick saw the crack.

I switched to a Mantis swivel and in order to use it with my 42kg Wasi anchor, I needed to use two shackles from them. This has a side effect of eliminating all side loading. It definitely helps with rotating the anchor over in the final few centimeters as it come home.

--
Scott 
2007 A54 #69
SV Tengah
http://www.svtengah.com


Joerg Esdorn
 

I’ve found that the Wasi swivel makes it more likely that the anchor comes up the wrong way.  This is with my 55 kg Spade.  Now with the anchor shackle its 50/50 whether I need to turn it by going backwards slowly with the anchor in the water  

Joerg Esdorn 


Nick Newington
 

How are the twists introduced?

I speculate it is not in the hauling up of the anchor, but whilst at anchor.  The boat rotates around the hook as the wind swings/dies at night whatever. It could easily happen several times in a calm night.

I speculate that the windlass does not create the twists on the contrary it pushes them down the chain as it is being dropped.

If that is the case then it makes sense to periodically drop nearly all the chain at an anchorage with no wind or lots of room, this should push the twists down the chain towards the bitter end, then with only a couple of meters left, untie the bitter end from its rope and take out the twists. Re-attach the rope.

In conclusion if one is anchored in the trade winds, with steady breeze then you are not likely to pick up twists. Conversely if you are anchored in tidal conditions with wind against tide or flat calm flukey breezes then lots of twists could ensue.

I like to have a rope bitter end that can snake out of the windlass so that if I had to dump the anchor and buoy it in an emergency that line could be cut under load.

Nick

Amelia 

Aml 54-019

On 15 Aug 2022, at 15:20, Joerg Esdorn via groups.io <jhe1313@...> wrote:

I’ve found that the Wasi swivel makes it more likely that the anchor comes up the wrong way.  This is with my 55 kg Spade.  Now with the anchor shackle its 50/50 whether I need to turn it by going backwards slowly with the anchor in the water  

Joerg Esdorn 



James Alton
 

Before adding the Ultra fip swivel. Our Mantus anchor was coming in upside down about 50 percent of the time.   Towing this anchor in reverse normally would right the anchor unless there were twists in the chain. We have been using the Ultra flip swivel since August of 2021 and so far every recovery since then has been right side up.  Yes it is another connection but I think makes handling the anchor a lot safer.  I also installed the Ultra flip swivel on an elderly couples boat who were also having the upside down anchor issue and they had good results but not a 100 percent cure with their 45 lb. CQR.   Has anyone had or heard of a failure with the Ultra flip swivels?  

James Alton
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 05:20:30 PM GMT+3, Joerg Esdorn via groups.io <jhe1313@...> wrote:


I’ve found that the Wasi swivel makes it more likely that the anchor comes up the wrong way.  This is with my 55 kg Spade.  Now with the anchor shackle its 50/50 whether I need to turn it by going backwards slowly with the anchor in the water  

Joerg Esdorn 


Bruno COTTE
 

I don’t like the WASI swivel . I do prefer a lot the Ultra swivel

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 15 août 2022 à 17:57, James Alton via groups.io <lokiyawl2@...> a écrit :


Before adding the Ultra fip swivel. Our Mantus anchor was coming in upside down about 50 percent of the time.   Towing this anchor in reverse normally would right the anchor unless there were twists in the chain. We have been using the Ultra flip swivel since August of 2021 and so far every recovery since then has been right side up.  Yes it is another connection but I think makes handling the anchor a lot safer.  I also installed the Ultra flip swivel on an elderly couples boat who were also having the upside down anchor issue and they had good results but not a 100 percent cure with their 45 lb. CQR.   Has anyone had or heard of a failure with the Ultra flip swivels?  

James Alton
SV Sueno
Maramu #220

On Monday, August 15, 2022 at 05:20:30 PM GMT+3, Joerg Esdorn via groups.io <jhe1313@...> wrote:


I’ve found that the Wasi swivel makes it more likely that the anchor comes up the wrong way.  This is with my 55 kg Spade.  Now with the anchor shackle its 50/50 whether I need to turn it by going backwards slowly with the anchor in the water  

Joerg Esdorn 


Bill Kinney
 

We have always used a Mantus swivel not so much because it swivels, (which I have always found pretty irrelevant)  but because the design is stronger than most shackles that will fit through the links of a chain. Since it has an oversize shackle to attach to the anchor, it can't ever get an unfair loading.

It is a mystery to me how some boats seem to ALWAYS have problems with anchor chain twisting and for others it NEVER happens.  In some cases it is due to a mismatch between chain and gypsy.  Every time the chain "skips" on the gypsy--it twists.  But I'll not pretend to say that explains all the problems for everybody. We are among the boats who never have trouble with chain twisting...ever.  

Because this problem has proven so intractable for so many boats, I have begun to suspect that some chains have a bit of a built in tendency to twist under tension. I can imagine this happening if the links were not absouelty flat when welded. Someday I'll get a chance to help somebody who has this problem sort it out, and maybe then I'll have better ideas about it.

Another anchoring issue that we do not understand is problem with the "backwards" or "upside down" anchor.  Our anchor comes up pretty randomly positioned relative to the roller.  It might start coming over the roller "correctly" or on its side, or totally upside down. If it comes up "wrong" we just keep pulling.  As the shank of the anchor comes up on the roller the anchor pretty quickly becomes unstable if it is sideways or upside down, and it just rolls over to where it is supposed to be.  If the anchor presents "upside down" it can take a bit more pull to get it started over the bow roller, but our Amel standard Lofrans windlass has no trouble with our 110 lb Mantus.

This approach has worked for us both with and without swivels, on several boats, and with CQR, Rocna, Bügel, and Mantus anchors, even with a manual windlass.  So I can't believe it is very geometry specific...  If I had a boat where the geometry of the anchor roller did not allow the anchor to roll over on retrieval, I'd modify the roller until it did.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Port Louis Grenada
http://cruisingconsulting.com


Ruslan Osmonov
 

Hi Bill, are you using S2 or S3 swivel? S3 is bigger and heavier, and 10mm chain is in between S2 and S3, for G4 10mm they recommend S2 and for G70 10mm they recommend S3. 

I'm leaning towards Mantus swivel, because of the shackle and no sideway loads during shifts. I think Ultra is a good swivel, but the ball only gives 30 degree sideway articulation, I'm not an expert, but even this particualr thought will keep me at night...

--
Fair winds
Ruslan Osmonov
Phanthom, A54 #44


Dean Gillies
 

Hi all,
I am now monitoring the twisting in my chain very carefully. I removed all twists from the chain yesterday and dropped anchor today. I still get the chain jumping in the gypsy on deployment (per my original video). I suspect this is where my twist is being generated, rather than the jumping being caused by a twisted chain in the locker.

I will have some time tomorrow between cooling dips and plan to do some more serious investigation. I have some ideas, but let's see what transpires.

For what it's worth, I have never used swivels other than the one on the Wasi Buegel that came on my Amel, but that anchor was retired pretty quickly, along with the swivel.

My current Rocna rarely comes up the wrong way and if it does then it rights itself very quickly on the bow roller. No need for a swivel to solve that problem.

Cheers
Dean




--
Dean Gillies
SV Stella *****,  Amel 54-154


Mohammad Shirloo
 

Hello Ruslan,

We replaced the original Amel swivel with the mantus S3 this year. It appears to be good quality and design. It is designed for boats up to 70 feet. It does come with a large shackle that eliminates side loading of the swivel. However, the shackle does not pass through the hole of the anchor. We installed another shackle, that fit the anchor hole, and connected the Mantus shackle to the one we purchased.

The setup fits fine in the roller and have had no issues with anchoring, chain twist and hold in winds up to 30 knots.


Mohammad & Aty
B&B Kokomo
A54 #099


From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Ruslan Osmonov via groups.io <rosmonov@...>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 10:16:11 PM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] swivels at the anchor
 
Hi Bill, are you using S2 or S3 swivel? S3 is bigger and heavier, and 10mm chain is in between S2 and S3, for G4 10mm they recommend S2 and for G70 10mm they recommend S3. 

I'm leaning towards Mantus swivel, because of the shackle and no sideway loads during shifts. I think Ultra is a good swivel, but the ball only gives 30 degree sideway articulation, I'm not an expert, but even this particualr thought will keep me at night...

--
Fair winds
Ruslan Osmonov
Phanthom, A54 #44


Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

I have a Viking 25 anchor.

I removed the Kong swivel that was attached to a CQR from the previous owners so the chain terminates in a Crosby shackle. Every time I weigh anchor, the Viking finds the correct placement at the bow roller. I do think I will install a Mantus S3 swivel because the oblong pin is stronger than any shackle. Althoughv a stainless steel swivel in brine might be brittle after five years.

 

FYI, the Viking has performed amazingly. It sets in one metre every time. However, like the Rocna, it does tend to get clogged in very sticky mud and need five metres to reset. I am considering an oversized Sarca Excel for use in Mud.

Daniel
Oronia #14


Jamie Wendell
 

Ruslan, I believe there is a new Mantus swivel stowed away on Phantom. I just never installed it.
You might want to try it, as I was always a bit nervous with the ball swivel.
Jamie
Ex-owner Phantom, A54 #44