Trust, but verify...


Bill Kinney
 

One of the things that Bill Rouse has repeatedly brought to the front and center for all of us has been the need to monitor and watch what workman on your boat are doing.  Just making sure that the work is being done as advertised, with reasonable dispatch, and that you are getting what you paying for. I suspect all of us have at one time or another gotten less than perfect work from a marine tradesman.  I know I have.  Unfortunately it is not always possible for us to really be 100% sure of what is being done.  None of us are experts in EVERYTHING about a boat.  This is such a warning story...

I was recently driving with an Amel owner to their boat to work on some of their systems.  They had recently had completed a repower, and there were some complaints about the work that had been done.  One comment set off alarm bells for me.  There was some frustration expressed that the routing of the exhaust hose had been changed, and no longer looped up high, as Amel did, "to keep it out of the way." 

As soon as I was aboard, I checked the engine room, and found this:



If you have any familiarity with marine engine exhaust systems, this picture should horrify you.  An almost FLAT path for water from the exhaust thru-hull fitting to the engine. The low point of the exhaust hose is less than 10" above the static waterline. What little rise there is off to the starboard side, and when heeled over hard on port tack, it would likely be underwater, or VERY close to it.  Granted, there are two flapper valves in this system.  One at the exhaust thruhull, and one built into the waterlock muffler, but those are really designed to knock back a surge of water from a wave impact, not supply a watertight seal for hours at a time.

This use of a "gooseneck" routing for the exhaust hose is NOT an Amel special thing. It is part of ANY proper, standard marine engine install.  The installation manual for this particular engine listed a requirement of at least 40cm of elevation above the waterline at all angles of heel.  Other resources on exhaust systems suggest a minimum requirement of 45cm. In any event, the installation manual specific to the engine was ignored, and standard industry practice was either ignored or not known.

So this is a hot mess, but luckily was caught before real damage could occur, and is easily fixed, albeit with the addition of a lot of expensive exhaust hose that should have been included in the engine install. Another repower that I recently helped put right had even bigger issues. But with the understanding that not everybody can be knowledgable in all things... what's the alternative?  

I really haven't thought about this before, but since a very large percentage of the repowers I have seen have gone pear-shaped in sometimes major ways, I have a suggestion...

For projects as large and expensive as a repower it seems a good idea to have a contract clause that the work is subject to an independent survey before final sign off and payment. This means you have to find a surveyor skilled in the evaluation of the systems involved, and you have no absolute guarantee that they will know any better, but at least you get a second pair of (hopefully) knowledgable eyes. Most of us wouldn't spend US$30K or US$40K on a used car without getting an independent mechanic to evaluate it.  It seems like the same level of care should be extended to major boat modifications.

I'd very much like to hear how other people manage the technical end of major projects.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


 

Bill

I have not seen a photo of this installation, but I have reviewed photos of about 6 repowered Amels in the past 12 months and none made this mistake. 

However, 3 out of  6 had been repowered with the starting battery negative wire connected to the engine block. In other words, a non-isolated engine, putting the C-Drive at risk. I also saw about 4 new generators installed with all but 1 having an isolation kit installed. 

Best,

CW Bill Rouse 
Amel Owners Yacht School
+1 832-380-4970 | brouse@...
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
www.AmelOwnersYachtSchool.com 
Yacht School Calendar: www.preparetocastoff.blogspot.com/p/calendar.html


   


On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 5:43 PM Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...> wrote:
One of the things that Bill Rouse has repeatedly brought to the front and center for all of us has been the need to monitor and watch what workman on your boat are doing.  Just making sure that the work is being done as advertised, with reasonable dispatch, and that you are getting what you paying for. I suspect all of us have at one time or another gotten less than perfect work from a marine tradesman.  I know I have.  Unfortunately it is not always possible for us to really be 100% sure of what is being done.  None of us are experts in EVERYTHING about a boat.  This is such a warning story...

I was recently driving with an Amel owner to their boat to work on some of their systems.  They had recently had completed a repower, and there were some complaints about the work that had been done.  One comment set off alarm bells for me.  There was some frustration expressed that the routing of the exhaust hose had been changed, and no longer looped up high, as Amel did, "to keep it out of the way." 

As soon as I was aboard, I checked the engine room, and found this:



If you have any familiarity with marine engine exhaust systems, this picture should horrify you.  An almost FLAT path for water from the exhaust thru-hull fitting to the engine. The low point of the exhaust hose is less than 10" above the static waterline. What little rise there is off to the starboard side, and when heeled over hard on port tack, it would likely be underwater, or VERY close to it.  Granted, there are two flapper valves in this system.  One at the exhaust thruhull, and one built into the waterlock muffler, but those are really designed to knock back a surge of water from a wave impact, not supply a watertight seal for hours at a time.

This use of a "gooseneck" routing for the exhaust hose is NOT an Amel special thing. It is part of ANY proper, standard marine engine install.  The installation manual for this particular engine listed a requirement of at least 40cm of elevation above the waterline at all angles of heel.  Other resources on exhaust systems suggest a minimum requirement of 45cm. In any event, the installation manual specific to the engine was ignored, and standard industry practice was either ignored or not known.

So this is a hot mess, but luckily was caught before real damage could occur, and is easily fixed, albeit with the addition of a lot of expensive exhaust hose that should have been included in the engine install. Another repower that I recently helped put right had even bigger issues. But with the understanding that not everybody can be knowledgable in all things... what's the alternative?  

I really haven't thought about this before, but since a very large percentage of the repowers I have seen have gone pear-shaped in sometimes major ways, I have a suggestion...

For projects as large and expensive as a repower it seems a good idea to have a contract clause that the work is subject to an independent survey before final sign off and payment. This means you have to find a surveyor skilled in the evaluation of the systems involved, and you have no absolute guarantee that they will know any better, but at least you get a second pair of (hopefully) knowledgable eyes. Most of us wouldn't spend US$30K or US$40K on a used car without getting an independent mechanic to evaluate it.  It seems like the same level of care should be extended to major boat modifications.

I'd very much like to hear how other people manage the technical end of major projects.

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Arno Luijten
 

Bill (Rouse),

In my experience many of the so called marine technicians are are one trick ponys. They think because they have seen one installation, they have seen them all. Especially on an Amel this quite risky give the number of "different way of solving" solutions that are incorporated. This becomes real risk if you (as an owner) are not familiar with the technical details of your boat. Amel boats are build with a lot of idiosyncratic solutions and you need to at least understand them to make sure 3rd parties will not mess up. The whole point being that you as an owner are in the end sailing away with the boat trusting your safety to the boat (systems). Once a few hundred (or thousand) miles away it really is your problem if things were "fixed" improperly.

For me I try to do as much as possible myself, keeping the boat as much as possible unmodified, unless the alteration is improving the quality of the boat and even then I try to fit the changes into the original plan as tidy as possible even if that is more work.
As soon as someone says about some original part of the installation: "I don;t understand why they did this like this because my way is much better" you should be on high alert. I'm not saying Amel did everything perfect when they build our boat but most of it makes good sense either from technical perspective, because of limiting the build cost or simply because at the time of build it was the right solution given the available materials/solutions.

For the example of the exhaust hose is was clearly done by an amateur calling himself professional. It reminds me of my own saying that if you suck as car-mechanic you can always become a marine mechanic. At least that is what is seems to be sometimes.

Cheers,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Bill Kinney
 

Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Arno Luijten
 

Hi Bill (Kinney),

In my book the distinction between "professional" and "amateur" is very much different from the distinction between good quality and poor quality. So even if a mechanic works for a big name means little to me. I have seen this a number of times in the car industry as well. Usually it only means high hourly rates and a lot of pressure to finish jobs ASAP to keep the invoice acceptable.
I agree that many talented people will seek work in the so-called super yacht industry also because of the more interesting technology involved. However given the tight procedures around that world not every one likes to end up there and the resulting quality is more an effect of tight supervision by 3rd parties then anything else. I spoke to several of these guys (crew/captain on super yachts) here on Saint Martin and they seem to have the same problems as us finding competent workers.
I find good workmanship lies more in the pride they take in their job. Just like the car business when a small workshop can excel in quality much more then the official dealer. But for every highlight there are at least 10 dodgy car-shops. Finding the highlight is the big problem. For marine mechanics it is the same but there are much less of those around and if they are good they are normally swamped in work anyway so getting a slot of their time is not so easy. Most of these independents make better money then the ones working for the renowned companies where the shareholders want there cut as well. So quite often the situation is the reverse of what you say. The skilled worker becomes an independent so he can keep the money he earns. This does have a challenge as this requires more self-discipline to keep the quality high of the person and not all are gifted in that area.

Regards,

Arno Luijten
SV Luna,
A54-121


Patrick McAneny
 

I recently had repairs done by a large and local yard , in my case they did more damage to my boat then they repaired. Towards the end as I tired of repairing their mistakes , even though I had paid them in full for the repairs ,I told them to stop work and that I would finish the repairs myself. I am at the point ,that I trust no one and would rather do the work myself ,if at all possible. 
I am taking my boat to Deltaville for a couple of issues on the way south ,I have heard good things about them and expect to have a good experience with them.
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Michael & Robyn
 

Greetings!

maybe developing a couple of written specifications for standard repair / replace big items, which we all will face one day,  to be included in the work contract would help.

We used the excellent technical information from this group e.g. Bow Thruster Repair from Nikmat to talk the task at hand  through with David and Arthur in Jolly Harbour in Antigua. They are excellent experts and didn't really need the information but they were still appreciative for the refresher. The did the work with precision in the AMEL spirit.

But we had also less good experiences with replacing some of our running rigging there with a different company. I would still like the group to come up with a reasonable way to share less good experience to alert fellow cruisers and to supervise and document every step of a known substandard shop for future work to give them a chance to improve and demonstrate that it may have been a one time flaw.
--
Michael & Robyn

SY RIPPLE SM2K # 417


Bruno COTTE
 

In Antigua it is not cheap but you have excellent riggers … imagine they work often on mega sailboats with 30 meters +++ masts ( up to 50 +even )

Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 25 oct. 2021 à 20:33, Michael & Robyn <SY_RIPPLE@...> a écrit :

Greetings!

maybe developing a couple of written specifications for standard repair / replace big items, which we all will face one day,  to be included in the work contract would help.

We used the excellent technical information from this group e.g. Bow Thruster Repair from Nikmat to talk the task at hand  through with David and Arthur in Jolly Harbour in Antigua. They are excellent experts and didn't really need the information but they were still appreciative for the refresher. The did the work with precision in the AMEL spirit.

But we had also less good experiences with replacing some of our running rigging there with a different company. I would still like the group to come up with a reasonable way to share less good experience to alert fellow cruisers and to supervise and document every step of a known substandard shop for future work to give them a chance to improve and demonstrate that it may have been a one time flaw.
--
Michael & Robyn

SY RIPPLE SM2K # 417


Michael & Robyn
 

Hi Bruno,

They may work well on modern Mega Yachts with all Dynema (core and sleeve) ropes but these slip on our main outhaul and jib cart position controls.
By the way has anyone a recommendation what rope type to use?
--
Michael & Robyn

SY RIPPLE SM2K # 417


Eric Freedman
 

Hi Pat,

Where are you headed?

Fair Winds

ERIC

Kimberlite Amel SM 376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:07 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

 

I recently had repairs done by a large and local yard , in my case they did more damage to my boat then they repaired. Towards the end as I tired of repairing their mistakes , even though I had paid them in full for the repairs ,I told them to stop work and that I would finish the repairs myself. I am at the point ,that I trust no one and would rather do the work myself ,if at all possible. 

I am taking my boat to Deltaville for a couple of issues on the way south ,I have heard good things about them and expect to have a good experience with them.

Pat

SM Shenanigans

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Bruno COTTE
 

I have seen fantastic job on an Amel 54 named now or never . 


Envoyé de mon iPhone

Le 26 oct. 2021 à 00:49, Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...> a écrit :



Hi Pat,

Where are you headed?

Fair Winds

ERIC

Kimberlite Amel SM 376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:07 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

 

I recently had repairs done by a large and local yard , in my case they did more damage to my boat then they repaired. Towards the end as I tired of repairing their mistakes , even though I had paid them in full for the repairs ,I told them to stop work and that I would finish the repairs myself. I am at the point ,that I trust no one and would rather do the work myself ,if at all possible. 

I am taking my boat to Deltaville for a couple of issues on the way south ,I have heard good things about them and expect to have a good experience with them.

Pat

SM Shenanigans

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Alan Leslie
 

Hi Michael and Robyn,

For the main outhaul we use 12mm Vectran...since changing to this it has NEVER slipped.
Amel originally used 10mm, but with high tension this diameter reduces and it will eventually slip.
Jib cars the same Vectran...and we replaced our old alloy pulleys with stainless steel ones from Mark McGovern - no slip at all.

Cheers
Alan
Elyse SM437


Patrick McAneny
 

Eric, I kept a previous boat I owned in the BVIs for years, before buying the Amel in 2006 .we have spent a few winters on the Amel in the Eastern Caribbean as well ,so we thought we should give the Bahamas a try ,for a change. I know people that loved it and some not as much ,so we will see for ourselves. 
Thanks,
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Hi Pat,
Where are you headed?
Fair Winds
ERIC
Kimberlite Amel SM 376
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:07 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...
 
I recently had repairs done by a large and local yard , in my case they did more damage to my boat then they repaired. Towards the end as I tired of repairing their mistakes , even though I had paid them in full for the repairs ,I told them to stop work and that I would finish the repairs myself. I am at the point ,that I trust no one and would rather do the work myself ,if at all possible. 
I am taking my boat to Deltaville for a couple of issues on the way south ,I have heard good things about them and expect to have a good experience with them.
Pat
SM Shenanigans

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...
Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Eric Freedman
 

Hi Pat,

I was hoping we could meet up in the Caribbean.

 

I was wondering do you have offshore insurance, if so by what company?

Fair Winds

Eric

Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 8:27 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

 

Eric, I kept a previous boat I owned in the BVIs for years, before buying the Amel in 2006 .we have spent a few winters on the Amel in the Eastern Caribbean as well ,so we thought we should give the Bahamas a try ,for a change. I know people that loved it and some not as much ,so we will see for ourselves. 

Thanks,

Pat

SM Shenanigans

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Hi Pat,

Where are you headed?

Fair Winds

ERIC

Kimberlite Amel SM 376

 

 

From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:07 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

 

I recently had repairs done by a large and local yard , in my case they did more damage to my boat then they repaired. Towards the end as I tired of repairing their mistakes , even though I had paid them in full for the repairs ,I told them to stop work and that I would finish the repairs myself. I am at the point ,that I trust no one and would rather do the work myself ,if at all possible. 

I am taking my boat to Deltaville for a couple of issues on the way south ,I have heard good things about them and expect to have a good experience with them.

Pat

SM Shenanigans

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA


Patrick McAneny
 

Eric, Our one regret about not returning to the Eastern C. is that we will not be able to meet up with friends we know will be there this winter. We of course include you in that group, we stopped by your boat a couple times while in St. Martin , a few years back, but you were not aboard,then again when we anchored in Long Is. where you live ,but there was a squall that evening. We will catch up with you one day.
I have my insurance with Gary Golden who owns Manifest Marine. He has been great to deal with ,but I miss the policy coverage and premium I had with Pantaenius ,I wish they had stayed in the US. market. 
Pat
SM Shenanigans


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Oct 26, 2021 4:36 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...

Hi Pat,
I was hoping we could meet up in the Caribbean.
 
I was wondering do you have offshore insurance, if so by what company?
Fair Winds
Eric
Kimberlite Amel Super Maramu #376
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2021 8:27 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...
 
Eric, I kept a previous boat I owned in the BVIs for years, before buying the Amel in 2006 .we have spent a few winters on the Amel in the Eastern Caribbean as well ,so we thought we should give the Bahamas a try ,for a change. I know people that loved it and some not as much ,so we will see for ourselves. 
Thanks,
Pat
SM Shenanigans

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Freedman <kimberlite@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...
Hi Pat,
Where are you headed?
Fair Winds
ERIC
Kimberlite Amel SM 376
 
 
From: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick McAneny via groups.io
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2021 8:07 AM
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...
 
I recently had repairs done by a large and local yard , in my case they did more damage to my boat then they repaired. Towards the end as I tired of repairing their mistakes , even though I had paid them in full for the repairs ,I told them to stop work and that I would finish the repairs myself. I am at the point ,that I trust no one and would rather do the work myself ,if at all possible. 
I am taking my boat to Deltaville for a couple of issues on the way south ,I have heard good things about them and expect to have a good experience with them.
Pat
SM Shenanigans
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Kinney <cruisingconsulting@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Mon, Oct 25, 2021 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Trust, but verify...
Arno,

Unfortunately, these mechanics on this project were not at all amateurs, although their work was certainly substandard.  They were full time mechanics working for a major marine service firm. I don't want to point the finger at any specific organization, because that would dilute the message (and get me in trouble with the forum rules!)

This wasn't a case of something that was Amel specific being misunderstood.  Nor was it a case of hiring somebody who was a "shadetree mechanic."  The organization that did this install does MANY engine installs in a year in a major east coast yachting center.  I have no idea how many of them they get this badly wrong.  That's really not my point.  I really just want to push out the fact that these things happen, even with "well qualified" and referenced checked mechanics, and everybody need to be sure they have a way to protect themselves. Some of us have the technical background and skillset to mange the technical sides of these projects. Many others (most?) do not.  For those who are not comfortable evaluating the technical side of a complex boat upgrade project, there is a need to plan ahead to get a second opinion.

It is certainly fortunate to be in a position to be able to do everything yourself, but it is unrealistic to expect that to be an option for all owners.

In discussions I have had about this with people in the industry, the conclusion I have come to is that the really good, and smart, mechanics and other tradesmen, quickly learn to move "up market."  There is a LOT of opportunity for capable and competent people in the super yacht end of the business where the money and working conditions are a LOT better. Just as an example, one of the the best marine refrigeration and electrical businesses in Annapolis no longer works with private clients at all, only professional yacht managers are considered desirable clients.  I certainly understand WHY, but it is still a pain for us with boats that have annual maintenance budgets of less than 6 figures.  We are left with the second string...

Bill Kinney
SM160, Harmonie
Annapolis, MD, USA