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Twin headsail furling

david bruce
 

https://youtu.be/G8LmSX-vEys

Thought this vid might be interesting to those noodling on how to fly 2 headsails or ballooner w 2 track foil.

Dave Bruce
Liesse
SN006
Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Thank you for posting this. It's great to see how people are doing this. If the system that I proposed in the other thread, works; it would mean a lot less work to hoist a ballooner. A ballooner that could be furled together with the headsail. The rigging would always be in place and be ready to deploy in about 20% of the time taken in this video. 

Daniel
Oronia Mango #14
James Alton
 

Dave,

Thanks for the video but I think that I would prefer to try the tensioned continuous line idea myself.  I have been pondering this one for a few years and I think a continuous line might be the best way to go.   The arrangement in the video shows a loose tailed haylard for hoisting the second downwind sail and is further complicated by having to use a mouse.   Being out on a pitching bow handling these two loose lines to me would be more difficult and risky than the continuous loop with no loose ends.  Also, if the fairly large haylard line shown in the video were to get loose and wrap around something it shouldn't one could lose the ability to furl and possibly damage the furling system or maybe end up in the prop.  With the continuous line idea there are no loose ends unless the line breaks.  My plan would be to size the continuous line such that if it somehow failed and got tangled up that the furling system could break the smaller line without damage to the furling system.   All of this is so far untested but it is good to see in the video that the concept apparently does work.

James Alton
SV Sueno


-----Original Message-----
From: david bruce <davidcbruce57@...>
To: main@amelyachtowners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Oct 11, 2022 11:08 am
Subject: [AmelYachtOwners] Twin headsail furling


Thought this vid might be interesting to those noodling on how to fly 2 headsails or ballooner w 2 track foil.

Dave Bruce
Liesse
SN006
Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

James,

The line could be tensioned perfectly by slackening off the primary genoa halyard six inches, "to get the knot in".

I am not so sure of your idea of a weak tensioned halyard that is weak enough to break. I think it might be better to go for the full 10/12mm. I don't think the halyard will obstruct the furling. 
An extra thick continuous line would only serve to put less line in the furling box.

Perhaps the main thing that can go wrong is chafe on the genoa with continuous deployment of the loop when no secondary sail is in use. Especially on the tack that puts the genoa against the continuous line and blocks. It could damage the genoa horribly. 

Check out the sketch for addition of a clutch in the other thread, if you haven't already. 

Daniel
Oronia Mango #14
James Alton
 

Daniel,

   In answering your questions, I think that It might be helpful if I clarify a few things about the possible modifications to my Amel to allow me to raise a balloner on my 2 track extrusion and still furl.  I own an Amel because I really like the design of the boat and a number of the factory installed features such as the electric furling systems.  I also think that one should be very careful about making any modifications to these boats for reasons that have been clearly expressed on this forum.  The 34 year old furling systems on our boat have only given us trouble once in the past 8 years and a tap with a rawhide mallet restored function temporarily and a good cleaning of a sticky brush eliminated the problem.    Any system that has survived this long and is still reliable is to me is just amazing and a credit to the designer/ builder!  I don't want to do anything to the boat that could compromise the functionality of these furling systems.  Any time that changes are made there is always a chance that something unforseen could create a problem.   So this is why I am taking this slow to be sure that I am on the right path.    So no, I will not be using a strong haylard for the continuous line to hoist the ballooner, especially in the testing phase.  Assuming that the testing goes well, I would plan to design the supporting hardware such that the small continuous line is laying as close to the extrusion as possible so there should not be a chafe issue.  On paper this idea looks like it could work but time will tell.  In the meantime any changes that I make during the testing phase will be easily reversible.  

Best,

James Alton
SV Sueno
Maramu #220


-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Alexander Thompson <Thompson.Xander@...>
To: main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io
Sent: Tue, Oct 11, 2022 5:22 pm
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Twin headsail furling

James,

The line could be tensioned perfectly by slackening off the primary genoa halyard six inches, "to get the knot in".

I am not so sure of your idea of a weak tensioned halyard that is weak enough to break. I think it might be better to go for the full 10/12mm. I don't think the halyard will obstruct the furling. 
An extra thick continuous line would only serve to put less line in the furling box.

Perhaps the main thing that can go wrong is chafe on the genoa with continuous deployment of the loop when no secondary sail is in use. Especially on the tack that puts the genoa against the continuous line and blocks. It could damage the genoa horribly. 

Check out the sketch for addition of a clutch in the other thread, if you haven't already. 

Daniel
Oronia Mango #14
Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

James, 

Your decision is the correct one for your boat and potentially for my boat, too. Eight millimetre  Spectra is plenty strong enough. But it will be harder to pull tension into the sail by hand.

Daniel
Oronia Mango #14
Mike Longcor (SV Trilogy)
 

One idea could be to slack the genoa halyard a bit as you manually haul up the ballooner. Maybe best to raise the ballooner on the same side/overlaid on the genoa. Once the ballooner reaches it's stop point at the top swivel, ease the genoa sheet to depower the sail and winch up the halyard so proper luff tension is restored. Then jibe/sheet the ballooner across to have both sails open. Trim the sheets and you're off. Maybe the ballooner can be raised on its own side (not overlaid on the genoa), but there could be a lot more flogging and both sails will need to be depowered to raise the top swivel and restore luff tension. Keep in mind not a lot of halyard/luff tension is needed or desired when running downwind.

Another idea is have a system to pull down on the tack of the ballooner so full tension doesn't have to be achieved by hand with a small diameter halyard. I'm not sure this will work because both sail luffs are the same length and there's not much space at the furler.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers,
Mike Longcor
SV Trilogy SM23
NZ


On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 4:25 AM Daniel Alexander Thompson <Thompson.Xander@...> wrote:
James, 

Your decision is the correct one for your boat and potentially for my boat, too. Eight millimetre  Spectra is plenty strong enough. But it will be harder to pull tension into the sail by hand.

Daniel
Oronia Mango #14
Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Mike,

This is a good idea to get tension with an 8mm halyard. Alternatively, one could use a device that grips the 8mm loop halyard and makes it easier to haul. 

The ballooner halyard idea is pretty solid, now. It's just the practical understanding of how things might get jammed or might chafe, in actual practise. I can't wait to get my hands on a ballooner.

Daniel 
Oronia Mango #14

I attached the image from the other thread here, since the discussion has morphed to this thread. It is a nice illustration of the concept. (Moderators. I will generally not upload an image, twice.)
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