Which oil


JP Mans <jp-gaill@...>
 

Hi all
I am a new maramu owner and I'd like some advice :
The boat is equiped with a well maintained Perkins 4158 (3400h).
On the boat there are some oil-filters, impellers and diesel-filters in reserve that I intend to change. I need to change also the oil, so which oil do you recomand me ? The boat is actually in Tunesia and I'll sail to Greece this summer.
Thanks for advices
Jean-Paul


Dave_Benjamin
 

We use Rotella.

--- In amelyachtowners@..., "JP Mans" <jp-gaill@...> wrote:

Hi all
I am a new maramu owner and I'd like some advice :
The boat is equiped with a well maintained Perkins 4158 (3400h).
On the boat there are some oil-filters, impellers and diesel-filters in reserve that I intend to change. I need to change also the oil, so which oil do you recomand me ? The boat is actually in Tunesia and I'll sail to Greece this summer.
Thanks for advices
Jean-Paul


jjjk12s <jjjk12s@...>
 

Jean_Paul,

Short answer...In your situation I would use a good quality 15W40 basic type mineral diesel engine oil, eg API CD if you can get it.

Long answer...If you stay in a warm area you can use a monograde like straight W40 - an advantage is thicker oil in old engine can be beneficial as you probably have more clearance in bearings etc than a new engine and the thicker oil helps keep up oil pressure. Not good in cold weather when cold starting though as there can be initial wear due to insufficient lubrication before engine warms up. Multigrade like 15W40 is better then (eg winter in Greece).

Other question is brand. I don't think this makes any difference as it depends what is available where you are. Each brand will have a range of oils from simple to very fancy.

Next question is how high-tech? Lots of additives or expensive synthetic oil? On an old engine best not to get too fancy. Yacht engine use is different to vehicle use for which engine oils are developed. Too high a spec (higher API) can lead to bore glazing and wear.

High additive modern oils contain detergents to minimise sludge. If you change to them after long use of an older style oil the detergents can get more gunk suspended from inside the engine in the oil. You may need to change the oil and filter more regularly for at least the next due change.

New engines have seals made to cope with modern synthetic oils. Your old engine was not designed for these and changing to synthetic has potential for leaks.

Hope this helps.

John Maramu #91 Popeye

--- In amelyachtowners@..., "Dave_Benjamin" <dave_benjamin@...> wrote:

We use Rotella.

--- In amelyachtowners@..., "JP Mans" <jp-gaill@> wrote:

Hi all
I am a new maramu owner and I'd like some advice :
The boat is equiped with a well maintained Perkins 4158 (3400h).
On the boat there are some oil-filters, impellers and diesel-filters in reserve that I intend to change. I need to change also the oil, so which oil do you recomand me ? The boat is actually in Tunesia and I'll sail to Greece this summer.
Thanks for advices
Jean-Paul


JP Mans <jp-gaill@...>
 

Thanks to all who answered me, it was surely helpfull.
best regards
JPS


Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Hello John

Thanks for all this info.

I have a Perkkns 4.236 from 1980 with 10k hours.

I think the engine has likely been consistently changed with bog standard oil being the additive laden kind 15W40 for at least the last few years.

If this is the case, do you see any need for me to switch over to mineral oil? 

Blessings
Daniel 
Oronia


 

Xander,

I believe that you are confused with the term "mineral oil." in the context of the email where this term was used. The message reads, "I would use a good quality 15W40 basic type mineral diesel engine oil, eg API CD if you can get it."

They are making a differentiation between mineral oil a/k/a "petroleum distilled oil" and synthetic oil.

Mineral oil is any of various colorless, odorless, light mixtures of higher alkanes from a mineral source, particularly a distillate of petroleum.

The name 'mineral oil' by itself is imprecise, having been used for many specific oils over the past few centuries. 


Bill

CW Bill Rouse Amel Owners Yacht School
720 Winnie, Galveston Island, Texas 77550 
   

On Mon, Jul 4, 2022 at 8:29 AM Daniel Alexander Thompson <Thompson.Xander@...> wrote:
Hello John

Thanks for all this info.

I have a Perkkns 4.236 from 1980 with 10k hours.

I think the engine has likely been consistently changed with bog standard oil being the additive laden kind 15W40 for at least the last few years.

If this is the case, do you see any need for me to switch over to mineral oil? 

Blessings
Daniel 
Oronia


Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Thank you very much for the in depth clarification, Bill.

To iterate. I have a Perkins 4.236 from 1980 with 10k hours. The last forty oil changes have likely been with SYNTHETIC OIL. I imagine I can get another 4000 hours out of her and after this I would likely desire to rebuild the engine for another 8000 hours.

To rephrase the question. Does anybody think it would be a good idea to instead, start sourcing a PETROLEUM DISTILLED OIL, for future oil changes?

Blessings
Daniel (Xander)
Oronia Mango #14


David Vogel
 

My understanding is that it is inadvisable to change back and forth between the synthetic (either fully synthetic or blended) and the so-called mineral oils. Best practice is to choose one oil type and stick with it.

Also, better to avoid changing back-and-forth between oils using different additive technologies - such as the so-called ashless-dispersant oils versus detergent additives - which use different process to achieve the same objectives, but are somewhat incompatible.

Synthetics are reported to be better than mineral oils for almost all criteria - apart from (mainly) cost. The higher-performance the engine, the better the case for synthetics.

Even synthetics will degrade with time, particularly in cases of irregular use, relatively short average hours per start (i.e. non-continuous use), and low hours per year.

We will therefore probably do the oil change every 250-300hours, or 12 months, whichever comes first, irrespective of whether we are using synthetic or mineral oils, even though synthetics offer higher operating-hours-per-oil-change.

For non-turbo diesel engines of our power range (<300hp), and recreational use-case, there is little to suggest that using synthetics will extend the engine life beyond that which would otherwise be achieved with mineral oils, all other things, such as service schedule, being equal.

For turbo'd engines, the tighter tolerances and higher operating temperatures of the turbo bearing surfaces, in combination with the fact that the engine lube oil is circulated as a cooling function of the turbo, may weigh the balance more towards synthetic oils (because synthetics hold up better than mineral oils at higher temperatures). Although, in use, extended running of turbo'd engines at low power settings appears to be the greatest contributory factor towards early turbo failure, or service-calls.

For our 105HP turbo-intercooled Yanmar 4JH3-HTE (and ONAN), my choice was to standardise on the use of Shell synthetic-blend Diesel Rotella T4 15W-40; API SL: CF-4, due to its better high-temp stability (to support the turbo). One other important consideration has been cruising area and availability; in our case, ensuring supply in out-lying areas (remote South Pacific), where fully-synthetic or synthetic-blend oils are not always available. I departed the US with >75 litres. Unfortunately, Shell Rotella is not readily available in AUS/NZ, so presently revisiting the question of a suitable replacement.

Useful reference for those wanting to know more about oil types: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/synthetic-oil-31800

David
SM#396, Perigee
NZ

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Daniel Alexander Thompson <Thompson.Xander@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Tuesday, 5 July 2022 at 2:11 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Which oil

Thank you very much for the in depth clarification, Bill.

To iterate. I have a Perkins 4.236 from 1980 with 10k hours. The last forty oil changes have likely been with SYNTHETIC OIL. I imagine I can get another 4000 hours out of her and after this I would likely desire to rebuild the engine for another 8000 hours.

To rephrase the question. Does anybody think it would be a good idea to instead, start sourcing a PETROLEUM DISTILLED OIL, for future oil changes?
Blessings
Daniel (Xander)
Oronia Mango #14


Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

David's point regarding the availability of good quality synthetic oils is particularly relevant in this discussion if you are planning to circumnavigate and/or sail in remote far away areas.

We started out with an excellent synthetic (against the advice of our Brisbane-based Yanmar mechanic after much research on the topic) but always maintained a rigid regime of over-servicing with all our oil changes as close to 100 - 150hrs max but soon realized that the same (or similar blend) synthetic oils were very often not available once leaving first world countries. Based on this we did a double oil change in Indonesia, with just a few hours in-between to completely hot-flush all the synthetic oil out, and then managed to stay on precisely the same good quality Shell mineral oil all the way back around the world except for in Ecuador where they seemed to have an equally good premium mineral oil brand available.

My advice would be to stick to a good mineral-based oil if you are circumnavigating, especially if the north and the south Indian Ocean are on your itinerary otherwise you will be chopping and changing between non-consistent synthetic blends which would not be good for the motor at all. We found the very familiar yellow Shell-branded premium mineral oils available almost everywhere, and even in places like Hell-Ville in NE Madagascar. We always purchased a number of cans of the stuff when we found it but you would be surprised at how much you use circumnavigating and you don't want to be loaded with huge amounts of oil in order to stay with one particular favorite synthetic brand or formula.

Colin, ex SV Island Pearl II - SM2000
Brisbane  

On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 6:56 PM David Vogel <david.vogel@...> wrote:
My understanding is that it is inadvisable to change back and forth between the synthetic (either fully synthetic or blended) and the so-called mineral oils.  Best practice is to choose one oil type and stick with it.

Also, better to avoid changing back-and-forth between oils using different additive technologies - such as the so-called ashless-dispersant oils versus detergent additives - which use different process to achieve the same objectives, but are somewhat incompatible.

Synthetics are reported to be better than mineral oils for almost all criteria - apart from (mainly) cost.  The higher-performance the engine, the better the case for synthetics.

Even synthetics will degrade with time, particularly in cases of irregular use, relatively short average hours per start (i.e. non-continuous use), and low hours per year.

We will therefore probably do the oil change every 250-300hours, or 12 months, whichever comes first, irrespective of whether we are using synthetic or mineral oils, even though synthetics offer higher operating-hours-per-oil-change.

For non-turbo diesel engines of our power range (<300hp), and recreational use-case, there is little to suggest that using synthetics will extend the engine life beyond that which would otherwise be achieved with mineral oils, all other things, such as service schedule, being equal. 

For turbo'd engines, the tighter tolerances and higher operating temperatures of the turbo bearing surfaces, in combination with the fact that the engine lube oil is circulated as a cooling function of the turbo, may weigh the balance more towards synthetic oils (because synthetics hold up better than mineral oils at higher temperatures).  Although, in use, extended running of turbo'd engines at low power settings appears to be the greatest contributory factor towards early turbo failure, or service-calls.

For our 105HP turbo-intercooled Yanmar 4JH3-HTE (and ONAN), my choice was to standardise on the use of Shell synthetic-blend Diesel Rotella T4 15W-40; API SL: CF-4, due to its better high-temp stability (to support the turbo).  One other important consideration has been cruising area and availability; in our case, ensuring supply in out-lying areas (remote South Pacific), where fully-synthetic or synthetic-blend oils are not always available.  I departed the US with >75 litres.  Unfortunately, Shell Rotella is not readily available in AUS/NZ, so presently revisiting the question of a suitable replacement.

Useful reference for those wanting to know more about oil types: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/synthetic-oil-31800

David
SM#396, Perigee
NZ

From: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io> on behalf of Daniel Alexander Thompson <Thompson.Xander@...>
Reply to: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Date: Tuesday, 5 July 2022 at 2:11 am
To: <main@AmelYachtOwners.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [AmelYachtOwners] Which oil

Thank you very much for the in depth clarification, Bill.

To iterate. I have a Perkins 4.236 from 1980 with 10k hours. The last forty oil changes have likely been with SYNTHETIC OIL. I imagine I can get another 4000 hours out of her and after this I would likely desire to rebuild the engine for another 8000 hours.

To rephrase the question. Does anybody think it would be a good idea to instead, start sourcing a PETROLEUM DISTILLED OIL, for future oil changes?
Blessings
Daniel (Xander)
Oronia Mango #14










--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Thank you very much for the valuable recommendations, David and Colin.

Daniel
Oronia
Mango #14


Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

I’m going to go with Shell "petroleum distilled oil" (mineral oil) . I have about 80 litres of synthetic to get through, first. I will do a double change, when I switch out. 

 

Colin. Do you ever use SAE40 or always 15W40? Reasoning? Do you have any pointers when buying the Shell petroleum distilled oil. Is it “pretty much a muchness” or is there some nuance to the specification of the oil? 

 

Slightly off topic, here:

 

My protocol vs. engine starting. (This is not advice.)

 

I try to never start the engine unless it has not been started for six weeks. In which case I will start it and run it for minimum one hour under full load motoring 1600 rpm. I believe that this thoroughly lubricates all the seals and bearings which will have dried out.

 

When I start the engine, I run it for thirty seconds at idle and then gradually increase rpm over the next thirty seconds. Then I apply load at the sixty second mark to move the boat and increase to 1600 rpm within a few minutes. So I start the engine very near the point at which I need it.

When shutting down the engine I only let the engine idle for about thirty seconds before shutting it down (I don’t have a turbo to run down).

 

I try to keep a load on the engine and almost never idle the engine unless this avoids stopping and starting. Basically attempting to maintain a good operating temperature so all the rings etc are at an optimal diameter.  

 

(I used to own a big Iveco truck and I couldn’t get my driver to stop “warming up” the engine at idle for half an hour. I believed he was destroying the engine)

 

I would very much appreciate Colin and David’s thoughts vs this protocol.


Colin - ex SV Island Pearl
 

Daniel
We pretty much always found 15W40, but I believe SAE40 would represent the exact same viscosity when the engine is hot, so should also be fine to use too especially with your start regime. I personally would prefer to stick with 15W40 simply since that is what is recommended.  The are many far more experienced engineers and budding diesel mechanics in this group who may be able to give some wisdom on the 15W40 vs SAE40 choice.

In terms of your start procedure, we were not as disciplined at this as you, but generally always warmed it up slowly before any hard running, simply started the engine as and when required, and also liked to let it idle a little (say 5mins) after any harder use before turning it off. I am not an engineer or diesel mechanic. and did all servicing myself during the circumnavigation, with only one professional service in the Caribbean, so my choice was to "over-service" in terms of oil changes, and also absolutely treat the motor and running gear extremely carefully all the way around, never running it hard other than a few occasions when we were chased for 4 hours in Indonesia and for much longer off Brazil. Also giving it a good blast every hour in zero wind conditions long slow motoring, and absolutely always dive on the prop to ensure absolutely ZERO growth on it before leaving on any trip so the autoprop H6 was always in a well-balanced spin to avoid any bearing wear. By doing these things religiously our motor looked after us extremely well and we never experienced any mechanical problems at all the entire way around the big circle.

Colin - ex SV Island Pearl II
Brisbane



On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 10:45 PM Daniel Alexander Thompson <Thompson.Xander@...> wrote:

I’m going to go with Shell "petroleum distilled oil" (mineral oil) . I have about 80 litres of synthetic to get through, first. I will do a double change, when I switch out. 

 

Colin. Do you ever use SAE40 or always 15W40? Reasoning? Do you have any pointers when buying the Shell petroleum distilled oil. Is it “pretty much a muchness” or is there some nuance to the specification of the oil? 

 

Slightly off topic, here:

 

My protocol vs. engine starting. (This is not advice.)

 

I try to never start the engine unless it has not been started for six weeks. In which case I will start it and run it for minimum one hour under full load motoring 1600 rpm. I believe that this thoroughly lubricates all the seals and bearings which will have dried out.

 

When I start the engine, I run it for thirty seconds at idle and then gradually increase rpm over the next thirty seconds. Then I apply load at the sixty second mark to move the boat and increase to 1600 rpm within a few minutes. So I start the engine very near the point at which I need it.

When shutting down the engine I only let the engine idle for about thirty seconds before shutting it down (I don’t have a turbo to run down).

 

I try to keep a load on the engine and almost never idle the engine unless this avoids stopping and starting. Basically attempting to maintain a good operating temperature so all the rings etc are at an optimal diameter.  

 

(I used to own a big Iveco truck and I couldn’t get my driver to stop “warming up” the engine at idle for half an hour. I believed he was destroying the engine)

 

I would very much appreciate Colin and David’s thoughts vs this protocol.



--
Colin Streeter
0411 016 445


Daniel Alexander Thompson
 

Thanks a lot for the information, Colin.

I suspect the SAE40 might offer better lubrication when running at temp than the 15W40 but it's just a guess. I will have to investigate a little more.

I think people idle a diesel engine for a lot longer than necessary and engines really want to be at their correct operating temperature as soon as possible. But like you, a few minutes at idle before stopping the engine is what i also do.